iTaLiAn_vIrUs

oh also
u can get an ASR subframe bar, or something similar which is exactly the same is an OBX-R
make sure to also get a rear sway bar. i have a 24 mill on mine and i love it

curlybandit

Based on the info MPR has helped me with, I'll be going with 10k front and 8k rear PIC's.

By the looks of it this build will add up, but I know it'll be worth it.

kane2k

The ASR kit is very solid. Here's a blurry pic of mine:

http://imgur.com/JhUCm.jpg

The Beaks bar looks like it only works with the first gen of the ASR kit,which had a flat rear face and extended LCA bolts. Mine's the newer one that I bought from option jdm and it uses your stock bolts. I don't think that bar is going to work with it, and given how solid the ASR already is, you don't need it.

MPR

...if you go with a rear subframe brace, you won't need a rear lower tie bar.

curlybandit

I thought so. Seemed like it would be reduntant.

But... Since I already have a lower tie bar, I guess the question is do I need the ASR subframe brace? I'm pretty sure the best answer would be that I'd want to replace the tie bar with the subframe brace.

Thanks.

MPR

^If you want you can sell the tie bar and get a brace (what I'd do), but even if you stick with the tie bar, to be honest, you'd still probably never notice the diffence...

Just make sure there is some kind of substantial extra support there and it'll perform well.

curlybandit

Based on some great info I've gotten from this site and others (but mostly here for sure), I have the following in mind for the suspension:

1. PRACTICE!! Driving school, lap days, etc...
2a. Dampening adjustable coil-overs, likely PIC Select, at 10k front 8k rear with rear sway bar - 23mm OEM CTR via passwordjdm.com (front not needed)
OR
2b. Koni Yellow with GC if I decide to gow without the sway bar at 10k and 14-15k (or same settings as above if I go with the sway bar)
3. Polyurethane bushings (Energy Suspensions bushing kit) EXCEPT THE RTA!!
4. Camber kit - front/rear (necessary for the drop in ride height) - but, could use the grade-8 (or higher) bolt and washer method to correct rear camber
5. ASR subframe brace kit (option 3 via passwordjdm.com comes with 23mm CTR sway bar and additional hardware) - remove rear lower tie bar (redundant)
6. Lower control arms (possibly) because replacing the OEM rubber can be difficult

H/Under-brace may not be require, extended ball joints possibly not needed because I don't plan on slamming the car. I want to be able to drive it on the road still.

Possibly replace my current upper strut bar with a 3-point bar and add a rear 4-point bar, but not really necessary...

Question about the spring rates: I still plan on driving the car on the street although by this point it will no longer be my daily driver. I don't mind the additional stiffness, especially for my intentions to take it the track (circuit, time attack, etc) but will 10/8k be too stiff?

Thanks.

iTaLiAn_vIrUs

get the tie bar and subframe brace

IMO.

iTaLiAn_vIrUs

not true!

i did a test on my car with and without it!
and i noticed a difference
nothing major i will admit.. but there is a slight difference

iTaLiAn_vIrUs

GENTLEMEN!

im sorry im tired
i mis-read that comment regarding the tie bar


i was actually talking about the sway bar

yah mikes right u wont notice a difference

again my bad, its been a longggg day
lol

MPR

^lol, no worries, we all have those days from time to time.

We run 11k up front and 6.5k rear on our MR2 race car. I've driven it on the street quite a bit with a race bucket (no padding) and it's stiff, but not horrible. On long trips it can get anoying but just cruising around, it's fine. (just keep in mind the MR2 is mid-engined, rwd and has the opposite weigh-bias as your fwd civic, hence the stiff springs up front and soft our back).

The fact that PIC offers the kit with 12k front springs worries me, because I know some people will use those WITH a front sway bar, and according to our methods/calculations, for a front-weight biased fwd car that is VERY stiff. I would expect that setup to push and understeer quite a bit or at least become very unstable while cornering over bumps. Though it would also depend on tire choice.

If you read that whole racing setup formula I linked to earlier you'd see that the idea is to load up the tires evenly during cornering. If you use equal spring rates, front and rear, and the car is 60/40, the end that weighs more will over-load and loose grip first. So by softening the front and stiffening the rear, you're effectively loading up both front and rear tires evenly and at the same rate, achiving the best possible level of mechanical grip.

Without getting into why sway bars are bad for optimal grip, basically you want to use a spring rate based on the calculation OR use a lower spring rate with the addition of a sway bar, such that when you go into a corner and the car rolls, the spring rate PLUS the stiffness added by the sway bar equals the calculated rate. If you know the rate of the sway bar, it makes it that much easier to choose a bar to match the springs your using. If you don't, it's a guess...lol.

So, if you go with the ground control springs, I suggest you go with the stiffer 14k springs and not use any sway bars. You will have more mechanical grip and better feed-back then you will by using a softer spring with a sway bar. I know some will argue with me, but I've experienced the results first-hand over the past few years.

We've had our MR2 in autocross (I took 3rd overall in class last year and this year one of our other teamates took 2nd in class this year in the same car), at shannonville, and this past year at a touge event at mosport DDT. It's neutral and stable and out-performed many other cars with a lot more power... People are always surprised to hear we have no sway bars...haha.

curlybandit

So I've read. Congrats!

That's one hell of an achievement. All the more reason why I appreciate all the help. Anytime someone who knows better than you is willing to offer advice, LISTEN.

All of the great info I have here is helping to create the right formula for what I want as my set-up.

Thanks again everyone.

MPR

^glad to help.

Suspension setup is a very tricky thing. There are so many factors. I'm still learning new things about it myself all the time.

Dampening is something I'm still striving to learn about more. I know what they do, how to adjust them and how they affect the handling, but not much more.

When ever you have spare time, just google something and read.

Peter H

If you're going to go with PIC, ask yourself if you need the adjustable damping. My personal opinion is that the non-adjustables have a better damping curve. I believe it was their 10K/8K offering. Once you've setup your damping for your car, you dont really need to deviate from it, so adjusting it can be a moot point, especially since most folks dont know how to set it up.

I also highly recommend ditching the front bar, but keeping the rear one. I've written about it here before somewhere. There are a couple reasons I think its beneficial, the obvious one being a case of over springing the rear end. ~65% of your weight is up front, meaning only ~35% is in the rear. Your rear springs are also more effective then the fronts, meaning if you have 500lb springs front and back, your car is really seeing 400lbs in the front, and 450lbs in the rear. (just an example. Numbers picked from thin air.) Using super stiff springs, with little weight over them can make your car unpredictable, especially upon corner entry.

If you are going with Koni Yellows, realize that they have about a 10K spring limit. Anything more and you need the revalved Koni's.

Look into hard rubber vs poly for your bushings.

Extended balljoints are to correct your geometry when you lower the car, because past a certain point, more lowering = more sway in turns. I think it was somewhere after 2" that it becomes an issue. Don't hold me to it though, since I cant recall anymore.

As far as spring rates, its subjective. I think 14/10 is a great starting place for example.

Hope this helps.

MPR

^I agree that once the spring rates and damping is set, it should no longer need to be adjusted. But finding that initial setting is the the reason I'd suggest going with adjustable dampers. If you significantly lighten or change the car in the future which requires a change in spring rates, you'll want the ability to adjust the damping.

Koni yellows do not have a 10k spring limit. We're running koni yellows with 600in-lbs springs (11k) and we had to turn them down. Full stiff was causing an over-damping ratcheting effect in our situation.

The limit of the damper and spring combination is subjective to the vehicle and it's dynamics.

I hope you meant 14k rear and 10k front... 14k up front is WAY stiff for a 60/40 fwd car. Even if you had REALLY good tires...lol.

I do agree that spring rates are subjective though. There are many different methods out there that work well. I've seen and experienced the results of our methods many times over in various forms of racing. I can tell you it's not unstable and unpredictable. In fact, we found it to be the opposite...

I forgot to ask before... curlybandit; What tires are you planning on running? That will have an effect on how you should setup the car as well...

curlybandit

Right.... Yet another thing that needs to be researched. I haven't gotten to that stage yet so for now my answer is, I don't know.

Since you've been so willing to offer up your experience and advice, perhaps there is something you would recommend? Or maybe that should be left to another thread...

MPR

^^Of course. Tires are VERY important. A general tip is the better the tires you use, the stiffer you can go with the spring rates.... to a point.

It would be best if you start a new thread about tires in that section.