curlybandit

Hey.

I've been planning on buying a few items for a suspension build. My intentions are to build the car for circuit racing/time attack.

The car is a 1996 Civic Si (EX in US) Coupe with a d16y8.

Parts:

Front upper strut bar (have Neuspeed)
Rear upper strut bar
Lower tie bar (have Neuspeed)
PIC Select (dampening adjustable) or some other quality equivalent
Lower control arms
Sway bars (front and rear)
Under brace
Camber kit
Energy Suspensions bushings kit
Roll centre adjuster/extended ball joints (possibly)

Any suggestions on what I may need or if there are any items that I won't in that list?

Thanks.

PurpleStuff

No offense. But that's a long list. And since you posted on the forums, guaranteed you'll soon change your mind about some if not all those parts.

However, are you asking for brands or...? Fyi, first get either coiovers first or bushing and then go from there. Also, fyi, if you're only looking for bang for buck products, usually the top name brands out there are good.

Also, put your est. Spending price limit on it. Ie, how much you looking to spend on the coiolvers, the lcas, etc? It all revolves around money, tbh. (Budget is the word I was looking for.)

curlybandit

Not looking for advice on brands. Already been researching all that. Want advice on the items I have listed as necessary or unecessary for what I have in mind.

Budget is always in mind. Not looking to spend a fortune but also not willing to buy cheap products that risk the car or myself.

Thanks

MPR

curlybandit, is this going to be a purely track driven car, or will it also see use on the street?

If it is going to be a pure track car, may I suggest you read this: http://www.torontocivics.com/f58/rac...ormula-167975/

Have you given much thought with regards to the actual settings you want to run or which settings would be optimal? Adjustability is always a good thing to have in any suspension component and I see you've got several adjustable components on your list, so that's good. Spring rates are generally fixed (linear) (progressive rate springs, imo, are not the optimal choice for a track setup), so you'll want to get a good combination right off the bat so you won't have to be swapping out springs to find the right rate. Adjustable dampners, ride height and camber are a few other key factors. DON'T slam the car to the ground. Despite what everyone else does, this is not the best thing to do. Pay close attention to the suspension geometry...

curlybandit

Thanks for the reply MPR.

The car will be an occasionally street driven car, so not necessarily a dedicated track car. Eventually I would like to turn it into a purpose built car for the track only, but I'd still like to drive it on the street from time to time.

From what I've read, PIC seem to be the adjustable coilover of choice. I'd like to have an adjustable set-up so that I can modify it for street to track use. As far as the settings go, I still have to research this, do some homework and test. I don't plan on slamming the car. I'd still like it to look good but be functional.

Of course, PRACTICE is a must.

Any suggestions? How about the list I have put together? From what I've been reading, LAC's aren't entirely necessary unless the bushings are worn out and even then it's more for weighjt reductions. Is the list a little overkill?

Thanks!!

MPR

Basically, you want to ONLY have motion within the suspension where it is supposed to have motion and in the intended direction of that motion (for example, a swing-arm or control arm should swing up and down and not be allowed to flex or move forward and back). Any flex beyond that motion can alter the suspension geometry to the point where it can give false feed-back, inconsistent handling characteristics and poor input response.

By swapping out all the stock rubber bushings with polyurethane bushings you can eliminate almost all unwanted flex in any suspension component.

After market LCA’s are not necessary, however changing the bushings can be a pain. It makes more sense in some cases to just replace the whole LCA with one that has new poly bushings already in it to begin with. But that is up to you.

The PIC kit looks like a nice package with some decent levels of adjustability and with linear rated springs. I also noticed you can specify what spring rates you’d like. After doing some basic calculations for a 96 civic coupe, I suggest you go with the 10k front 8k rear package, REMOVE the front sway bar (yes, remove it) and use a fairly large rear anti-roll bar. From what I see from my calculations, the 12K front spring combination will be too high, especially with a front sway bar, which will overload the front tires too quickly causing excessive under steer.

If you want more specific spring rates and to do away with the sway-bars (as I like to do, and is discussed in that link I posted earlier), you can go with koni yellow adjustable dampers (or similar) and ground control springs. With this combination you can specify the exact spring rates you want for the front and rear. As per my calcualtions 10k front and 14-15k rear is what I would consider to be close to an optimal estimation and is where I would begin my testing. However, 10k front and 8k rear with no front bar a big rear bar should give similar results...

From 6 years + research and experience, that's my 2 cents.

curlybandit

^^^^

This is why I LOVE these forums!! People who know a heck of a lot more than I do are willing to help out!

Thanks for the GREAT info MPR.

Someone offering more great advice from another forum suggested virtually the same. Disregard the front sway bar and focus on the rear. They suggested a 19mm Neuspeed or an Integra 22mm.

Sounds about right?

Thanks.

MPR

^yeah, I'd go with 22mm rear bar or even bigger if you still notice considerable understeer.

Another thing is what is the fastest, doesn't always feel the fastest. People will tend to adjust their car to suit their driving style and to feel the way they like.

The truth is, a neutral car is often a faster car, though it may not feel like it. Typically, the more neutral a car is setup, the higher the cornering speeds... If one end of the car is sliding during mid-cornering, then that will result in a lower average lap time.

curlybandit

So, given the information you've provided as well as some others in different forums, by the looks of it these are the items that will be the most important:

Dampening adjustable coil-overs (likely PIC Select) at 10k front 8k rear
Rear sway bar (22mm preferably) - front not required
OR
Koni Yellow with GC if I decide to gow without the sway bar at 10k and 14-15k
Polyurethane bushings (Energy Suspensions bushing kit)
Camber kit - front/rear (necessary for the drop in ride height)

The LCA's from what I understand aren't entirely necessary, but as you've mention, replacing the bushings could be difficult, so getting new ones with PU bushings might be best.

Is the under-brace/H-brace necessary? Would it be overkill or would it help considering my application?

I've read that the Roll centre adjuster/extended ball joints are usefull when lowering the ride height due to the alteration in suspension geometry. They help to restore the proper OEM suspension geometry while maintaining the lowered ride height. Any feedback on this?

MPR

You'll also want front and rear adjustable upper control arms so you can adjust the camber. That is also very important. I wouldn't worry about the roll centre adjusters just yet as they may not be necessary.

As for ride height; with the vehicle sitting at rest on level ground, typically you want the lower control arms to sit angled slightly downward towards the wheel from horizontal. Having the car sit so low as to have the control arms angled upwards towards the wheels can result in the geometry creating too much negative camber when the suspension is compressed during cornering.

Lowering the center of gravity is important but not as important as maintaining the proper geometry, maximizing the tire contact patch and grip.

curlybandit

I've been trying to find front and rear upper adjustable control arms online, but I'm not sure if I've found the correct things. For example, Ingalls has the following items that I think are what I need:

Front Upper Left: 39101-39104 - Adjustable Left Side Control Arm with Ball Joint - Ingalls Engineering Co., Inc.

The right is identical.

Rear Upper: 38900-38920 - SmartArm Adjustable Link, Adjusts Camber - Ingalls Engineering Co., Inc.

If this is correct for the rear, I believe other manufacturers refer to this as the rear camber kit (i.e. Skunk2).

I also found this for the uppers: 72150 SPC Performance Extreme Upper Control Arms

Are these the parts that I'm looking for?

Are there any others that you would suggest?

Thanks again for your help!

MPR

Contact OptionJDM (a vendor here on TCC). Just tell them what you're looking for and they'll help you find what you need. They have better prices than that too.

ol Dusty

iTrader: (2)

you can cheat the rears also by replacing the 2 bolts that go through the mount for the rear upper lca into the frame with longer bolts and putting washers between the mount and the frame. IF your not too low (and if you take anything from MPR's advice, this is possibly the most under-rated advice out there on this subject) then usually 2 washers per bolt and grade 8 bolts to replace the stock ones will get back about 1-1.5 degrees of camber pushing your rear tires closer to stock camber.

Just be sure to use grade 8 or higher strength bolts or you'll break them and have a real bad day.

As for the H brace and other tie bars, I have several on my EH3, but I suggest you start with your bushings and coil overs and see if your getting the desired neutral handling you're looking for. Personally I felt a good front upper and because I had to add a brace to the rear lower (ASR or other) for my JDM ITR 23mm rear sway bar and in my case the "C" pillar bar, because I have a hatch, not as necessary in a coupe made the biggest improvements to my cars body flex. The upper rear strut tower and H brace didn't seem to do as much but were still good for me. I also run a JDM ITR front sway with sk2 pro S coil overs, but my car is for street and seldom track. I opted for the lower spring rate of the pro s vs pro c sk2's or PIC's with hard sways to give me stiffer spring rates in the corners while not being as harsh on jounce and rebound movement of the suspension that you face in a car that has 600,000km's on it from coast to coast road trips.

The best part of my H brace is that is kinda acts like a cheap skid plate and it'll hit the ground or other objects before my exhaust or oil pan does.

Front camber kits are really offered in 2 styles as you posted, I don't recommend the ingall's style. The sk2 style is a bit better but you really gotta keep an eye on either from what I've seen on others cars. I personally don't use and camber kits currently. I know this goes against what has been said and kinda for my cars driving purposes but I have -3 degrees front and -2 rear and that's right where I want it. I also run -2 degrees toe and +1 rear. If I push too hard the cars tendency is to barely under steer, which is not neutral but I've got mine very very close. I've seen both styles of kit come loose and the tire go as far into negative camber as the kit will allow. Usually with the tire rubbing the inner sidewall on suspension components and ruining an otherwise good tire. These cases may or may not have been the fault of the installer or the part,I don't know I wasn't the user/installer or manufacturer.

JDMej1

i wouldnt consider neuspeed a great brand to go with imho. my strut bar bends like crazy when i take it off, its not stiff enough. i would go with a password:jdm 3 point front and a 4 point rear. make sure you get subframe braces too ie asr brace and beaks bar combo. then get a good anti-sway bar to match. for camber kits i would go with skunk2, nothing else. as ol dusty mentioned about adjusting toe, you may want to thing of a toe kit as well for the rear.

MPR

Ol Dusty, that's a good cheap tip for correcting the rear camber. Completely forgot about doing that... Good call.

I've actually done this to my own car. With the longer bolts, you can try putting in a different number of washers for variable rear camber. The less washers you use, the more negative camber.

curlybandit

I've read about the "$10" adjustment method and will definitely consider it since I really don't plan on being "slammed".

I've actually been wondering about the ASR subframe brace as I've seen others install them. I imagine that it would take place of the lower tie bar that I currently have installed, correct?

From what I've seen and read, it looks like the Skunk2 would be the best selection for camber kits.

Thanks for all the great info guys!

curlybandit

Okay...

I believe that I confused the front camber kit and the adjustable upper control arm as two separate things.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think they're the same thing. At least they sure look the same.

ol Dusty

iTrader: (2)

ASR is a good investment, I think passwordjdm makes a cheaper alternative that's just as good. I haven't used it with the beaks bar personally, I feel that that is overkill and done more for show. one or the other and the ASR style is better IF your using a big rear sway bar that is. the beaks is a good tie bar but not needed if you already have an ASR plate. The other benefit of the ASR one is that the kit includes blocks that go up in tucked sorta behind the LCA in between the sheet metal the LCA bolts into. It reinforces the sheet metal to prevent it from tearing under the added stress of the thicker rear sway bar.

As for the adjustable upper control arm and camber kit, yes. that's how camber kits work, by adjusting the control arm. the sk2 version allows the ball joint at the top of the steering knuckle to move in and out relative to the frame of the car for +/- camber, the Ignall's version replaces the bolts that go from your stock control arm into the strut tower and they are adjustable, by way of being like a cam lobe, as it moves the lobe the control arm is forced in or out depending on position.

MPR

Yes. The front and rear adjustable upper control arms is how you adjust camber.

The rear can be done with longer bolts and washers on a budget.

iTaLiAn_vIrUs

stick to the PIC's ull love them! what are you getting? 8/10? or 10/12 ?

i suggest changing ur trailing arm bushings while ur their.. its a pain in the *** BUT
WELL worth it.
Also, i would suggest getting a C-Pillar Bar
good quality lower control arms. ex skunk2
your camber kit. make sure ur getting front and rears
and thats all i can think of right now.. ur on the right track dude.. it will be expensive but it will be worth every penny