finished my mini me ,,,disappointed
26-Apr-2014, 09:31 PM
#1
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: nw ontario
Posts: 265
finished my mini me ,,,disappointed
Hi all, been a long time. Just finished my mini me swap this weekend, and have to say I am a bit dissapointed in the non kick im getting. i have I,H,E, underdrive pully, and used a ecu from a acura EL, which should be fine, not a real bang at 5200rpm,but a exauste note change and pulls pretty strong upto 6800rpm. sound right to every one?
Thx.
any suggestions for more of a kick welcome.
Thx.
any suggestions for more of a kick welcome.
26-Apr-2014, 11:32 PM
#2
Well I hate to say it but unfortunately there's a few reasons you're not getting much kick. Please understand I'm not trying to be a hater here and I'm certainly not trying to imply you're doing anything wrong, just maybe need to tweak a few things if a significant kick is what you want from a D series. Do understand, I'm only trying to give constructive criticism, based on my own personal experience with building not just motors, but specifically the D series. I have built several and I made a lot of mistakes along the way, hopefully someone else can benefit from my losses.
Now I do have a few questions, so I can help a little more after I know a little more about your setup. But I will get into some of the things that you could change and help as much as I can with what I do know so far.
What motor is the donor head from? I'm guessing on a D16Y7 block? What specific I/H/E are you running? Do you still have the stock pulley? And lastly, I don't know off hand e-test regulations all over our province, are you in an exempt area or do you need to have the EL's ecu for that reason?
The more I know about what you have, the better I can help, but hopefully the next bit can give you a push in the right direction...
First off, again, not trying to be a dick but unless you dump some serious coin into internals, or at the very least forced induction, a d series just isn't gonna give you a real big power gain no matter what bolt on's you throw at it. VTEC or not. Now that said, for what I do know about you setup, the intake tube, diameter and length can effect the power band on your car, and reverse, should be selected according to where you want gains/where you can exploit the power your motor is making, tho this kinda need a dyno to really dial in, looking into what other people who have similar engines are using for an intake, and seeing who's making the best numbers and what intake they have could help you narrow it down. Also with an NA motor, and like yours one that pulls steady to redline, usually the longer the better, and of course cooler the better as well. A true CAI, vs just a short ram will be better, tho maybe not practical for you. For a little more tq, down low which might help for a street-able improvement, find a B16 or similar stock air box that will fit your bay. It'll breath a little better then the stock (assuming again) Y7 setup, which I sure hope you're no longer using the intake manifold from anyway, so you should at least have the IM from the head you're running.
IM- If you are running a Z6, or older D15B Vtec manifold, gains could be had by cheap option getting a Y8 manifold, or a sk2/aftermarket one. I highly recommend avoiding knock off parts tho. Again cheap gains and great for a D series guy, get a B16 or similar B series maybe even H series throttle body. You don't wanna go too big here you'll lose tq more then you'll gain HP if you go too big. Most aftermarket ones range from 68+ and that's intended for B's and H's but because the fit the D series as well, they're listed for them but really unless you're boosted, it's overkill and counter productive. A thermal type, Hondata or similar IM gasket is a very cheap and for the cost, good mod as well.
Head - There's of course a few heads out there for a D mini me. I get you already have one but I'm gonna get into the differences a little just cause. The Z6 and Y8 are very much the same thing. Few small changes were made but not a whole lot, not anything that would really make a difference you'd notice tho even the D15B which IMO is the best head of the lot, won't be crazy better. It does have the biggest cam and bigger valves ever so slightly over the others tho.
Headers/Exhaust - what style header do you have? a Tri-Y or 4-1? These both like the intake can change where the power is in you motor. generally a Tri-Y will give you better bottom to mid range, a 4-1 more mid to top end. You're current setup is limited to 6800, and that's not really that high. Which brings me to you're ecu, but I'll get back to that in a bit. You also don't wanna go too big on the exhaust side, for the sake of scavenging. Too big and you'll again lose power. If you have something like a sk2 exhaust and you took out the silencer, try putting it back in.
Now back to the ECU, if you need the OBD2 ecu for emissions then yeah the EL or an Si (Canadian Si) is probably the best thing to run. If not tho then covert the car to OBD1 and get the motor properly tuned. You should be able to run stock internals at least to 7500 and you'll really appreciate the gain of just that.
Don't get down on your self, if all this seems a bit much. You can build a D that is at least fun to play around with and not get into forced induction. Tho you gotta really ask your self, what matters more here, staying D series to be different or do you just wanna go faster then the stock car by a significant amount and you don't really care what motor it is as long as its faster and still reliable (I mean you own a Honda, reliability has gotta matter to you) I say this cause the next few suggestions, it might be cheaper to just drop a B18B from a LS/RS Teg in complete swap and make the car have the same amount of power with only about 100lbs gain in weight.
Stay D? if this is what you really wanna do, and that's not a bad thing. I love the mighty D, then buy another head. Send it out and get it P&P'd, new valve seals, guides etc and then look into cams and valve train etc. Crower makes some decent top end parts for your motor. Then after that's on you really do need to get it tuned properly tho. You may wanna look into what it would take to use a D17 bottom end for a little more displacement. OR and personally this is the route I would go, is save up till you can afford a really nice complete turbo kit and I don't mean one that's gonna be crazy and make a kajillion HP, I mean a nice one made outta reliable parts that will run around 8-9 PSI and be safe on stock internals, should get you close to 200hp and that's a pretty good amount for a car that's normally pulled around by less then half that to the wheels stock.
Also a few other mods to consider that will help you out here is an Si trans, tho all D series are crazy tall anyway, the Si is at least a bit shorter 1-4 then the DX/LX and that'll help. M factory makes gear sets that could really help but that's a good amount of coin to drop on a D. Also get an appropriate clutch (Exeddy OEM spec is a great choice, and basically what came with the car) for NA or Boost, and if it's a daily/street car go full face clutch not puck. Mate that to a lighter flywheel. Again an appropriate one. Street car/daily, don't go crazy light 7-8lbs unless you're pure race. 10-12ish will give you gains without really giving you the cons of a full race one. Which brings me all the way back to your pulley. Lose it. Get a stock one on there. It's not doing anything good for you. That thing is really only good for someone who's looking to squeeze out every last drop of power and doesn't care about long term durability of the motor. Too light of a flywheel tends to damage the input shaft bearing, and a light crank pulley will damage crank bearings. They're just a pulley, not a harmonic balancer like the OEM one which is designed to absorb energy that makes the crank move in undesirable directions. You'd see more gain removing AC or PS.
Go B? Just throwing this out there, please disregard the rest of this if you choose. Find a decent running teg with a rusted out/crashed body, or other cheap but complete B18 swap. B20's are even better but the chances of finding one, with all the rest of the swap that you'll need... Not so good and if you do it's one someone else put together, beat the crap outta it till they lost their licence and now they're parting out the car. Just that alone, will gain you more HP from where your mini me is now, then adding VTEC did for you. Tho probably for a significant amount more. But for less then how much you'd need to spend to make your D series actually hit 140+HP. Then later since you already have an LS swap under the hood, you could boost that, stock they are known to handle it quite well, or do a VTEC conversion to it. Plus, and I'm a big, big fan of using OEM parts to improve a car, the B series VTEC head, will make a HUGE gain with a set of ITR springs and cams. Added bonus, if you're balling on a budget (like me) then you don't really wanna break the bank on internals, ITR cams put the peak power in a range you can get near safely with an LS bottom, most after market cams put power higher then stock redline and you really do need to build the entire motor to get the full potential of those cams that already cost you way more then staying OEM did.
Now I do have a few questions, so I can help a little more after I know a little more about your setup. But I will get into some of the things that you could change and help as much as I can with what I do know so far.
What motor is the donor head from? I'm guessing on a D16Y7 block? What specific I/H/E are you running? Do you still have the stock pulley? And lastly, I don't know off hand e-test regulations all over our province, are you in an exempt area or do you need to have the EL's ecu for that reason?
The more I know about what you have, the better I can help, but hopefully the next bit can give you a push in the right direction...
First off, again, not trying to be a dick but unless you dump some serious coin into internals, or at the very least forced induction, a d series just isn't gonna give you a real big power gain no matter what bolt on's you throw at it. VTEC or not. Now that said, for what I do know about you setup, the intake tube, diameter and length can effect the power band on your car, and reverse, should be selected according to where you want gains/where you can exploit the power your motor is making, tho this kinda need a dyno to really dial in, looking into what other people who have similar engines are using for an intake, and seeing who's making the best numbers and what intake they have could help you narrow it down. Also with an NA motor, and like yours one that pulls steady to redline, usually the longer the better, and of course cooler the better as well. A true CAI, vs just a short ram will be better, tho maybe not practical for you. For a little more tq, down low which might help for a street-able improvement, find a B16 or similar stock air box that will fit your bay. It'll breath a little better then the stock (assuming again) Y7 setup, which I sure hope you're no longer using the intake manifold from anyway, so you should at least have the IM from the head you're running.
IM- If you are running a Z6, or older D15B Vtec manifold, gains could be had by cheap option getting a Y8 manifold, or a sk2/aftermarket one. I highly recommend avoiding knock off parts tho. Again cheap gains and great for a D series guy, get a B16 or similar B series maybe even H series throttle body. You don't wanna go too big here you'll lose tq more then you'll gain HP if you go too big. Most aftermarket ones range from 68+ and that's intended for B's and H's but because the fit the D series as well, they're listed for them but really unless you're boosted, it's overkill and counter productive. A thermal type, Hondata or similar IM gasket is a very cheap and for the cost, good mod as well.
Head - There's of course a few heads out there for a D mini me. I get you already have one but I'm gonna get into the differences a little just cause. The Z6 and Y8 are very much the same thing. Few small changes were made but not a whole lot, not anything that would really make a difference you'd notice tho even the D15B which IMO is the best head of the lot, won't be crazy better. It does have the biggest cam and bigger valves ever so slightly over the others tho.
Headers/Exhaust - what style header do you have? a Tri-Y or 4-1? These both like the intake can change where the power is in you motor. generally a Tri-Y will give you better bottom to mid range, a 4-1 more mid to top end. You're current setup is limited to 6800, and that's not really that high. Which brings me to you're ecu, but I'll get back to that in a bit. You also don't wanna go too big on the exhaust side, for the sake of scavenging. Too big and you'll again lose power. If you have something like a sk2 exhaust and you took out the silencer, try putting it back in.
Now back to the ECU, if you need the OBD2 ecu for emissions then yeah the EL or an Si (Canadian Si) is probably the best thing to run. If not tho then covert the car to OBD1 and get the motor properly tuned. You should be able to run stock internals at least to 7500 and you'll really appreciate the gain of just that.
Don't get down on your self, if all this seems a bit much. You can build a D that is at least fun to play around with and not get into forced induction. Tho you gotta really ask your self, what matters more here, staying D series to be different or do you just wanna go faster then the stock car by a significant amount and you don't really care what motor it is as long as its faster and still reliable (I mean you own a Honda, reliability has gotta matter to you) I say this cause the next few suggestions, it might be cheaper to just drop a B18B from a LS/RS Teg in complete swap and make the car have the same amount of power with only about 100lbs gain in weight.
Stay D? if this is what you really wanna do, and that's not a bad thing. I love the mighty D, then buy another head. Send it out and get it P&P'd, new valve seals, guides etc and then look into cams and valve train etc. Crower makes some decent top end parts for your motor. Then after that's on you really do need to get it tuned properly tho. You may wanna look into what it would take to use a D17 bottom end for a little more displacement. OR and personally this is the route I would go, is save up till you can afford a really nice complete turbo kit and I don't mean one that's gonna be crazy and make a kajillion HP, I mean a nice one made outta reliable parts that will run around 8-9 PSI and be safe on stock internals, should get you close to 200hp and that's a pretty good amount for a car that's normally pulled around by less then half that to the wheels stock.
Also a few other mods to consider that will help you out here is an Si trans, tho all D series are crazy tall anyway, the Si is at least a bit shorter 1-4 then the DX/LX and that'll help. M factory makes gear sets that could really help but that's a good amount of coin to drop on a D. Also get an appropriate clutch (Exeddy OEM spec is a great choice, and basically what came with the car) for NA or Boost, and if it's a daily/street car go full face clutch not puck. Mate that to a lighter flywheel. Again an appropriate one. Street car/daily, don't go crazy light 7-8lbs unless you're pure race. 10-12ish will give you gains without really giving you the cons of a full race one. Which brings me all the way back to your pulley. Lose it. Get a stock one on there. It's not doing anything good for you. That thing is really only good for someone who's looking to squeeze out every last drop of power and doesn't care about long term durability of the motor. Too light of a flywheel tends to damage the input shaft bearing, and a light crank pulley will damage crank bearings. They're just a pulley, not a harmonic balancer like the OEM one which is designed to absorb energy that makes the crank move in undesirable directions. You'd see more gain removing AC or PS.
Go B? Just throwing this out there, please disregard the rest of this if you choose. Find a decent running teg with a rusted out/crashed body, or other cheap but complete B18 swap. B20's are even better but the chances of finding one, with all the rest of the swap that you'll need... Not so good and if you do it's one someone else put together, beat the crap outta it till they lost their licence and now they're parting out the car. Just that alone, will gain you more HP from where your mini me is now, then adding VTEC did for you. Tho probably for a significant amount more. But for less then how much you'd need to spend to make your D series actually hit 140+HP. Then later since you already have an LS swap under the hood, you could boost that, stock they are known to handle it quite well, or do a VTEC conversion to it. Plus, and I'm a big, big fan of using OEM parts to improve a car, the B series VTEC head, will make a HUGE gain with a set of ITR springs and cams. Added bonus, if you're balling on a budget (like me) then you don't really wanna break the bank on internals, ITR cams put the peak power in a range you can get near safely with an LS bottom, most after market cams put power higher then stock redline and you really do need to build the entire motor to get the full potential of those cams that already cost you way more then staying OEM did.
27-Apr-2014, 11:03 AM
#5
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: nw ontario
Posts: 265
No worries dusty I dont think your being a jerk at all, I really appreciate all the info, ok now to get to all the questions.
yes it is the y7 block from my car, The head Is a y8 I believe ,not 100%. was not informed of which head is was only that it was a soch vtec. Intake is a y8, The cai length runs to just about the rad area and dips down about 4 inches, i may shorten it up bc I am more about quicker throttle response and quicker acceleration than top end.The header is a ebay special, but a 4 to 2 to 1 for the quicker accel again. There are no emissions tests here so all good there, hence the no cat,(bad I know),, I dont have the original pully, dang, but can lookk for 1 im sure. I went to a recycle yard for a 96-98 civic ecu and they sold this to me and i figured it was ok bc the EL came with a y8 in it.
ok on to some of your awesome suggestions, you say a stock B16 air box on the y8 intake is better than a cai?, hmm didnt know that.
A B18 series tb will fit my D? there kinda plentyfull should have np finding 1 of those. does it have to be port matched?
the im gasket you refer too, why is that a good mod?Isnt it there just to matt the 2 surfaces together?
Oh ya my exhaust has a thrush muffler ,a cherry bomb and is 2" o.d. It,s to loud for me and would like to quiet it down some so Im open to options here.
I did buy a obd1 and jumper harness and still have it, problem is my car is a auto ( i know boo) but I like auto, anyway, there must have been some confusion when i bought the ecu ,which is chipped but I cant use it bc its for a manual and the seller refuses to help out so I am stuck with it, anyone have a trade out there?.lol.
I have considerd the B swap,and had it lined up all I need for 650$, but after thinking all that money and work for 20hp kinda killed it. Is there a bigger pull from a b series? ive read alot on this stuff and most said not that much, but leads to better gains when you go turbo.
I do have the y7 head still and it was rebuilt 2 years ago, never PanP,d thou. so maybe port/pol and a crower cam is a good thing, but no vtec? also dont really have anyone or anywere to program a ecu where I am at but im sure somebody on here could point in the right direction.
would so love to go turbo, but yes the coin involved is alot, probly 2-3grand for a good one.
I agree a si trans would really help aswell, a weekend project at my buddys garage, if i go that route.,hmmm how does the EL ecu effect the trans I have in it now?(y7). or does it not effect it, more based on sensors, pressures,tb positions and such still.
I will trust your advice on the pulley bc it seems you know your stuff, just thought it would free up more hp bc the crank would have to work less bc of the wieght difference?
ok hope that helps us ..lol thx again for the help.
yes it is the y7 block from my car, The head Is a y8 I believe ,not 100%. was not informed of which head is was only that it was a soch vtec. Intake is a y8, The cai length runs to just about the rad area and dips down about 4 inches, i may shorten it up bc I am more about quicker throttle response and quicker acceleration than top end.The header is a ebay special, but a 4 to 2 to 1 for the quicker accel again. There are no emissions tests here so all good there, hence the no cat,(bad I know),, I dont have the original pully, dang, but can lookk for 1 im sure. I went to a recycle yard for a 96-98 civic ecu and they sold this to me and i figured it was ok bc the EL came with a y8 in it.
ok on to some of your awesome suggestions, you say a stock B16 air box on the y8 intake is better than a cai?, hmm didnt know that.
A B18 series tb will fit my D? there kinda plentyfull should have np finding 1 of those. does it have to be port matched?
the im gasket you refer too, why is that a good mod?Isnt it there just to matt the 2 surfaces together?
Oh ya my exhaust has a thrush muffler ,a cherry bomb and is 2" o.d. It,s to loud for me and would like to quiet it down some so Im open to options here.
I did buy a obd1 and jumper harness and still have it, problem is my car is a auto ( i know boo) but I like auto, anyway, there must have been some confusion when i bought the ecu ,which is chipped but I cant use it bc its for a manual and the seller refuses to help out so I am stuck with it, anyone have a trade out there?.lol.
I have considerd the B swap,and had it lined up all I need for 650$, but after thinking all that money and work for 20hp kinda killed it. Is there a bigger pull from a b series? ive read alot on this stuff and most said not that much, but leads to better gains when you go turbo.
I do have the y7 head still and it was rebuilt 2 years ago, never PanP,d thou. so maybe port/pol and a crower cam is a good thing, but no vtec? also dont really have anyone or anywere to program a ecu where I am at but im sure somebody on here could point in the right direction.
would so love to go turbo, but yes the coin involved is alot, probly 2-3grand for a good one.
I agree a si trans would really help aswell, a weekend project at my buddys garage, if i go that route.,hmmm how does the EL ecu effect the trans I have in it now?(y7). or does it not effect it, more based on sensors, pressures,tb positions and such still.
I will trust your advice on the pulley bc it seems you know your stuff, just thought it would free up more hp bc the crank would have to work less bc of the wieght difference?
ok hope that helps us ..lol thx again for the help.
Last edited by antrmo; 27-Apr-2014 at 11:07 AM.
27-Apr-2014, 04:01 PM
#6
Didn't realize your car is auto, the trans is gonna be about the same regardless, and that is a major reason your not feeling any really pull from your motor. The added weight of auto trans internals is a huge parasitic load on the total HP/TQ. Building an auto trans and tuning is possible, but crazy expensive.
The IM gasket from Hondata or similar helps stop the heat transfer from the head into the IM keeping temps down, cooler IM, more dense the air is. More O2, more fuel can be burned, more power. That's why your car feels faster on a cool night then on a hot day.
B/D/H and non S2K TB's are the same bolt pattern and basically interchangeable. You need to gasket to match the TB. You will make better gains if you port match the IM with the TB. Sk2 has a good video link posted on their site for this.
The IM gasket from Hondata or similar helps stop the heat transfer from the head into the IM keeping temps down, cooler IM, more dense the air is. More O2, more fuel can be burned, more power. That's why your car feels faster on a cool night then on a hot day.
B/D/H and non S2K TB's are the same bolt pattern and basically interchangeable. You need to gasket to match the TB. You will make better gains if you port match the IM with the TB. Sk2 has a good video link posted on their site for this.
27-Apr-2014, 07:37 PM
#7
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: nw ontario
Posts: 265
I think next purchase will be the TB, and gasket.Then port the IM,or TB, or both?,lol. I will watch for a auto si trans.or ex? samething? what did you think about using the y7 head and puttin a cam in it. and port/polish. then comes the trying to find a place to flash a ecu.
27-Apr-2014, 10:21 PM
#8
Port only the IM, no need to port the TB, only port the the IM to match the TB, maybe even port it to a tapered shape. You'll have to look into gearing for the auto trans, I don't know if they're actually is any difference between trim levels when it comes to the trans. Also I don't know how to go about reflashing the ECU for an auto setup, it's been done in the Honda game, I don't know names specifically but I have def seen some serious builds, making good power and still auto, it's rare but not impossible. And probably not cheap for that reason mostly but also it may involve a custom trans or custom separate control module for the trans allowing you to run a manual ECU to control the engine, and tune it.
28-Apr-2014, 06:56 PM
#9
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Location: nw ontario
Posts: 265
hmmm found this on another site,, not much difference but some.
I found these gear ratios for the 96-00 Civics:
GEAR D16Y7 D16Y8
1st 2.600 2.722
2nd 1.468 1.516
3rd 0.926 0.975
4th 0.638 0.638
Rev 1.954 1.954
FD 4.357 4.357
I found these gear ratios for the 96-00 Civics:
GEAR D16Y7 D16Y8
1st 2.600 2.722
2nd 1.468 1.516
3rd 0.926 0.975
4th 0.638 0.638
Rev 1.954 1.954
FD 4.357 4.357
28-Apr-2014, 09:56 PM
#10
Not a huge diff, but you'd be surprised at what those numbers actually translate into for the speed vs rpm. If you can get one cheap and drop it in yourself (get someone or thing to help you drop it auto trajicks are a bajillion times heavier then mexican gear boxes) then would be a worth while swap.
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