The fight against bill 203
07-Oct-2007, 11:27 PM
#1
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 11
The fight against bill 203
Hey Guys
Just though i would share this article I came across with you guys and get some feed back also found a group on facebook fighting back.
Bill 203
Let me preface this by saying I am in favor of punishment for streetracing, but A the punishment must fir the crime and B the punishment should be administered by a system that posses the least amount of biases, not left up to officers that have been jaded by interacting with the public.
So that’s it... I've bit my tongue too long. I agree that street racing is wrong, and there were laws in effect to punish those who got caught, but this new bill 203 has one exactly what the car community has feared. It not only allows profiling, it encourages it and gives the police the authority to arbitrarily apply ludicrous fines to whomever it strikes their fancy.
I've only heard one or two reports about the abuse of power that we feared but even this many abuses is too many.
I understand that most police officers are good people, doing an admirable and thankless job, but to those who abuse their power, the ones whose insecurities make them want to "get back" at those who they envy.
This is the first law that actually scares me; this is a knee jerk reaction to fear mongering by government and social groups and has no place in democratic society. There are so many people that seem to not have any problems in allowing the state to confiscate their personal property, disrupt their lives, and punish them financially without any due process. To me this sounds like a direct violation of the Canadian Charter of rights and Freedoms.
I have a problem with fear mongering in general. It's a weak leader’s way to bring his followers back into line. Much in the same way most religions are fear mongering... do this or your going to hell... we have now entered the zone of if this new law doesn’t come into effect every person is going to die because of a street racer ruining into them.
Better yet I want to know what the criteria for street racing it??? The tragic accident that the two young drivers are being sentenced for this past week is a prime example. The state needed a patsy to make a point so they labeled them street racers and told the media to focus on that, other little details like, the father was over twice the legal limit of blood alcohol and ran a red light making him completely at fault go unnoticed. Instead they are portrayed as wild eyed youths with no concern for human life.
In closing I have only one question, how far are they allowed to go, how much is the public willing to let the state take from them on the sole basis of fear mongering? How long until we fight back?
"The people should not be afraid of its government, the government should be afraid of its people"
The facebook group is Our fight against 203, The canadian fight for Automotive freedom.
Just though i would share this article I came across with you guys and get some feed back also found a group on facebook fighting back.
Bill 203
Let me preface this by saying I am in favor of punishment for streetracing, but A the punishment must fir the crime and B the punishment should be administered by a system that posses the least amount of biases, not left up to officers that have been jaded by interacting with the public.
So that’s it... I've bit my tongue too long. I agree that street racing is wrong, and there were laws in effect to punish those who got caught, but this new bill 203 has one exactly what the car community has feared. It not only allows profiling, it encourages it and gives the police the authority to arbitrarily apply ludicrous fines to whomever it strikes their fancy.
I've only heard one or two reports about the abuse of power that we feared but even this many abuses is too many.
I understand that most police officers are good people, doing an admirable and thankless job, but to those who abuse their power, the ones whose insecurities make them want to "get back" at those who they envy.
This is the first law that actually scares me; this is a knee jerk reaction to fear mongering by government and social groups and has no place in democratic society. There are so many people that seem to not have any problems in allowing the state to confiscate their personal property, disrupt their lives, and punish them financially without any due process. To me this sounds like a direct violation of the Canadian Charter of rights and Freedoms.
I have a problem with fear mongering in general. It's a weak leader’s way to bring his followers back into line. Much in the same way most religions are fear mongering... do this or your going to hell... we have now entered the zone of if this new law doesn’t come into effect every person is going to die because of a street racer ruining into them.
Better yet I want to know what the criteria for street racing it??? The tragic accident that the two young drivers are being sentenced for this past week is a prime example. The state needed a patsy to make a point so they labeled them street racers and told the media to focus on that, other little details like, the father was over twice the legal limit of blood alcohol and ran a red light making him completely at fault go unnoticed. Instead they are portrayed as wild eyed youths with no concern for human life.
In closing I have only one question, how far are they allowed to go, how much is the public willing to let the state take from them on the sole basis of fear mongering? How long until we fight back?
"The people should not be afraid of its government, the government should be afraid of its people"
The facebook group is Our fight against 203, The canadian fight for Automotive freedom.
08-Oct-2007, 12:47 AM
#2
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 431
09-Oct-2007, 01:04 PM
#6
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,505
sometimes, yes.... unfortunately we represent a minority.
The mojority of the population agree's with this law. Wheater it is unconstitutional (no trial) or not doesn't matter to them.
They never forsee themselves speeding over 150 km/h, where as we do.
If something is to be REALLY done, its the need to change public opinion regarding this law.
starting a stupid facebook group isn't going to do anything...
GO CANADA!!!
The mojority of the population agree's with this law. Wheater it is unconstitutional (no trial) or not doesn't matter to them.
They never forsee themselves speeding over 150 km/h, where as we do.
If something is to be REALLY done, its the need to change public opinion regarding this law.
starting a stupid facebook group isn't going to do anything...
GO CANADA!!!
09-Oct-2007, 05:42 PM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,505
I can understand the awareness idea, but who are we making this aware too? mostly 12-25 year olds. They sadly don't represent much of the population, and statistically represent the smallest voter turn out year after year (18-25 obviously)...
if we don't care enough as a whole to vote, I doubt we're going to care enough to make a bill admendment.
we need to light something on fire and have a protest..lol
lol
10-Oct-2007, 02:06 PM
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,505
its sad but normally for people to realize a flaw something huge must occur.
Case scenario.
man on bike doing 150 on motorcycle on the 407. cops catchs him on radar and gives chase... man on bike decides he can't afford $10000 so he boots it thinking he can get away. Gets bike upto 250 km/h (i have several bikes, getting up to 250 is not hard at all... its actually almost rediculous how easy it accelerates to 200). man loses control and smashs into car full of school children.
2 ways it can be spun
1. blaim the biker 100%
2. realize that if this law wasn't in affect, there was a greater likelyhood he would have stopped
i dont know.. i hope it doesn't happen, but it always takes someone getting hurt for people to realize
Case scenario.
man on bike doing 150 on motorcycle on the 407. cops catchs him on radar and gives chase... man on bike decides he can't afford $10000 so he boots it thinking he can get away. Gets bike upto 250 km/h (i have several bikes, getting up to 250 is not hard at all... its actually almost rediculous how easy it accelerates to 200). man loses control and smashs into car full of school children.
2 ways it can be spun
1. blaim the biker 100%
2. realize that if this law wasn't in affect, there was a greater likelyhood he would have stopped
i dont know.. i hope it doesn't happen, but it always takes someone getting hurt for people to realize
10-Oct-2007, 07:28 PM
#12
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: mississauga
Posts: 2
its sad but normally for people to realize a flaw something huge must occur.
Case scenario.
man on bike doing 150 on motorcycle on the 407. cops catchs him on radar and gives chase... man on bike decides he can't afford $10000 so he boots it thinking he can get away. Gets bike upto 250 km/h (i have several bikes, getting up to 250 is not hard at all... its actually almost rediculous how easy it accelerates to 200). man loses control and smashs into car full of school children.
2 ways it can be spun
1. blaim the biker 100%
2. realize that if this law wasn't in affect, there was a greater likelyhood he would have stopped
i dont know.. i hope it doesn't happen, but it always takes someone getting hurt for people to realize
Case scenario.
man on bike doing 150 on motorcycle on the 407. cops catchs him on radar and gives chase... man on bike decides he can't afford $10000 so he boots it thinking he can get away. Gets bike upto 250 km/h (i have several bikes, getting up to 250 is not hard at all... its actually almost rediculous how easy it accelerates to 200). man loses control and smashs into car full of school children.
2 ways it can be spun
1. blaim the biker 100%
2. realize that if this law wasn't in affect, there was a greater likelyhood he would have stopped
i dont know.. i hope it doesn't happen, but it always takes someone getting hurt for people to realize
11-Oct-2007, 12:27 PM
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 1,416
I totally agree with you man. Whoever does 50 over the speed limit should suffer the consequences, period.
16-Oct-2007, 08:25 PM
#14
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Woodbridge
Posts: 15
yea that new law is messed up york region police accused my buddy of street racing against a vette, so they impounded his car for 7 days @ $80/day, took his liesence away literally they took it and didnt give it back, and charged him for street racing, the funny thing is that the vette he was drving beside took off when he saw the one cop car and that cop took chase and couldnt catch the vette so he turned around and came after my buddy and told him he was in troble for tryin to run , meanwhile he was going in the same direction and the same speed as b4. so i guess this law is not for the people that buy 60k+ cars.
19-Oct-2007, 03:22 AM
#15
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1
Is street racing the REAL problem?
Just to start off - there have been many vehicular deaths over the years. I am in no way justifying street racing or other potentially dangerous activities - however the media and society have gone too far in the so-called "battle" against street racing. If the police were concentrating their efforts on managing the flow of traffic for dangerous lane changes, tail gating, illegal u-turns, etc (instead of just pulling over speeders for a quick show of enforcement) the roads would be a much safer place to travel - This step alone would reduce the opportunities for street racing - further reducing todays issues.
Just to put the laws against street racing in perspective - I have yet to see anyone go to jail for eating a burger, changing the radio station or talking on the cell phone while driving at the same time. Yet all of these "distractors" as well as many others, kill many times more "innocent" motorists and pedestrians than street racing has or ever will. People just do not pay attention to their driving. Lack of attention is by far the biggest killer out there and NOBODY seems to care!!!!
We already have laws that encompass the real "threats" of street racing. Reckless driving, speeding, safety, noise and even vehicular manslaughter are just some of laws already in place - which can be used to punish many if not all types of street racing. I understand that driving isn't a "right" - but taking away my property - because of ignorance (guilty before proven innocent?!?) IS against the law.
Just to play the Devil's advocate - take the following scenario into consideration: Any of you drive a rear wheel driven vehicle? Let's say your off to the corner store in your Mercedes - you have your summer tires on and they are near the end of their life (but still legal). You start to proceed into the freshly dampened intersection (as it has just started to rain) when low and behold you spin your rear tires and commit a felony - thats right - a car that started to change lanes in the middle of an intersection has forced you to hit the gas harder to merge safely - soccer mom just "drifted" around the corner. Of course a police officer will be right their at that exact moment to charge you and take your $80,000 car and license away?! Sound far fetched? - not bloody likely! Ever been pulled over - just to be given a ticket for 4 kph over the limit? Well it happens - an officer will pull you over for ANY legitimate reason if you fit the profile. I know of one close friend that has been pulled over without cause. After getting nailed for speeding multiple times - he used the cruise control to ensure he did not speed. In this particular case he observed the police officer with radar LONG in advance - but he believed he was doing the speed limit. The police officer pulled him over anyways and advised him otherwise. BTW I was travelling the same speed far in front of my friend - but didn't meet the profiling (I suppose) and didn't get pulled over. (PS.. I know there is usually more too it - but this driver just attracted police for some reason)
Have any of you tried to go 100km/h on any of the 4xx series highways? It's almost suicide most of the time. The average speed on the 407 can be over 130kph depending on the time of day (didn't someone say that speed kills?). Transport truck drivers (notably now more than ever) are driving their rigs like they were sports cars (probably due to drivers who don't know/care to drive normally around them). This might explain the rollovers every week through the summer on ramps from highway to highway. I haven't heard of a truck driver going to jail for demolishing dozens of vehicles because he was SPEEDING into an onramp causing his load to shift. Yet I am supposed to drive and follow all the rules when no one else will? If you pay attention to all of the problems on the road - street racing - I hate to say it - really isn't much of a problem at all. (I AM talking in perspective here!)
Lets go the other way - I had the experience of following a group of 10 cars with a hardly davidson leading the pack. The cyclist was dutifully going the speed limit (or so he thought). Most Motorcycles can be off by as much as 10-15kph. So my trip on an 80kph highway - suitable for 120kph - is now at 65kph. I wasn't in any rush - as I was on vacation and was quite enjoying the scenery. I hate following groups that tailgate each other and decided to politely pass the vehicles in front of me. Once a long stretch of road was available I signalled and moved into on-coming traffic. Once I had safely passed the car in front of me - I signalled to be let back in - and you all know what happened now. That's right - the car tightened up the space and refused to let me in. Ok - not the end of the world - lets merge in front of that car - yeah right! Well that's 2 cars that have broken the law - and I am running out of time. Let's see - go in the ditch, slam on the brakes and hope that the colleciton of 50 cars behind me goes by before on coming traffic appears - or pass the remaining cars quickly. Well I was driving an automatic vehicle (instead of my standard vehicle) and simply depressed the accelerator. I quickly and safely passed the remaining vehicles and signalled to return back into my lane. Unfortunately for me - I was just starting to decelerate (by letting off the gas) when an OPP cruiser set up for catching speeders came zooming around the other way. (of course the officer thought it was important to make a 3 point turn in the middle of a turn abruptly obstructing traffic). Well it turns out I was going 51kph over the limit. 131 in an 80. I honestly hadn't intended on speeding to this degree but to be fair - 3 other people broke the law to put me in this situation in the first place. Of course there was no explaining this with the officer and I was summoned to appear in court. The fine was reduced - and all was fine at the end of the day (after taking 2 days off work as the first court date was cancelled). My point to all of this - if it happened to me - it could happen to many of you. I can't imagine having been stripped of my license and my car for an honest mistake - there was no malice, stunt driving or even racing involved. But that is precisely how I would be labled if this were to happen now.
If the "public" were actually serious about safer roads in Ontario... they would consider greater police presence, increase the speed limit to reasonable rates (on todays 4xx series highways and modern tires and vehicles 120kph is not in any way unreasonable!) increase fines for all traffic violators (how about those burgers and cell phones?)
Oh and yeah - one more thing. Our lifestyles are all based around family, houses and... cars. Not slow, stinky ugly ones - but nice (beauty is in the eye of the beholder) and in some cases fast cars. So where are all the race tracks? Oh you mean the tracks that are 1-2 hours away. The tracks where responsible young adults take their daily drivers and get HARASSED by the very same police that should be patrolling the roads for unsafe drivers instead! If the public was serious - tracks would be in the Toronto area - where over 2 million locals could easily access it - if this was done almost everyone would be happy (almost - because you can't please everyone!).
In the end - don't come crying to me about street racing - the media and your government (I didn't vote Liberal) doesn't have a clue what it takes to really make the roads safe.
Well that's my 2 cents - for what it's worth.
Were all in this together - be good to each other and enjoy life and driving - SAFELY!
Just to put the laws against street racing in perspective - I have yet to see anyone go to jail for eating a burger, changing the radio station or talking on the cell phone while driving at the same time. Yet all of these "distractors" as well as many others, kill many times more "innocent" motorists and pedestrians than street racing has or ever will. People just do not pay attention to their driving. Lack of attention is by far the biggest killer out there and NOBODY seems to care!!!!
We already have laws that encompass the real "threats" of street racing. Reckless driving, speeding, safety, noise and even vehicular manslaughter are just some of laws already in place - which can be used to punish many if not all types of street racing. I understand that driving isn't a "right" - but taking away my property - because of ignorance (guilty before proven innocent?!?) IS against the law.
Just to play the Devil's advocate - take the following scenario into consideration: Any of you drive a rear wheel driven vehicle? Let's say your off to the corner store in your Mercedes - you have your summer tires on and they are near the end of their life (but still legal). You start to proceed into the freshly dampened intersection (as it has just started to rain) when low and behold you spin your rear tires and commit a felony - thats right - a car that started to change lanes in the middle of an intersection has forced you to hit the gas harder to merge safely - soccer mom just "drifted" around the corner. Of course a police officer will be right their at that exact moment to charge you and take your $80,000 car and license away?! Sound far fetched? - not bloody likely! Ever been pulled over - just to be given a ticket for 4 kph over the limit? Well it happens - an officer will pull you over for ANY legitimate reason if you fit the profile. I know of one close friend that has been pulled over without cause. After getting nailed for speeding multiple times - he used the cruise control to ensure he did not speed. In this particular case he observed the police officer with radar LONG in advance - but he believed he was doing the speed limit. The police officer pulled him over anyways and advised him otherwise. BTW I was travelling the same speed far in front of my friend - but didn't meet the profiling (I suppose) and didn't get pulled over. (PS.. I know there is usually more too it - but this driver just attracted police for some reason)
Have any of you tried to go 100km/h on any of the 4xx series highways? It's almost suicide most of the time. The average speed on the 407 can be over 130kph depending on the time of day (didn't someone say that speed kills?). Transport truck drivers (notably now more than ever) are driving their rigs like they were sports cars (probably due to drivers who don't know/care to drive normally around them). This might explain the rollovers every week through the summer on ramps from highway to highway. I haven't heard of a truck driver going to jail for demolishing dozens of vehicles because he was SPEEDING into an onramp causing his load to shift. Yet I am supposed to drive and follow all the rules when no one else will? If you pay attention to all of the problems on the road - street racing - I hate to say it - really isn't much of a problem at all. (I AM talking in perspective here!)
Lets go the other way - I had the experience of following a group of 10 cars with a hardly davidson leading the pack. The cyclist was dutifully going the speed limit (or so he thought). Most Motorcycles can be off by as much as 10-15kph. So my trip on an 80kph highway - suitable for 120kph - is now at 65kph. I wasn't in any rush - as I was on vacation and was quite enjoying the scenery. I hate following groups that tailgate each other and decided to politely pass the vehicles in front of me. Once a long stretch of road was available I signalled and moved into on-coming traffic. Once I had safely passed the car in front of me - I signalled to be let back in - and you all know what happened now. That's right - the car tightened up the space and refused to let me in. Ok - not the end of the world - lets merge in front of that car - yeah right! Well that's 2 cars that have broken the law - and I am running out of time. Let's see - go in the ditch, slam on the brakes and hope that the colleciton of 50 cars behind me goes by before on coming traffic appears - or pass the remaining cars quickly. Well I was driving an automatic vehicle (instead of my standard vehicle) and simply depressed the accelerator. I quickly and safely passed the remaining vehicles and signalled to return back into my lane. Unfortunately for me - I was just starting to decelerate (by letting off the gas) when an OPP cruiser set up for catching speeders came zooming around the other way. (of course the officer thought it was important to make a 3 point turn in the middle of a turn abruptly obstructing traffic). Well it turns out I was going 51kph over the limit. 131 in an 80. I honestly hadn't intended on speeding to this degree but to be fair - 3 other people broke the law to put me in this situation in the first place. Of course there was no explaining this with the officer and I was summoned to appear in court. The fine was reduced - and all was fine at the end of the day (after taking 2 days off work as the first court date was cancelled). My point to all of this - if it happened to me - it could happen to many of you. I can't imagine having been stripped of my license and my car for an honest mistake - there was no malice, stunt driving or even racing involved. But that is precisely how I would be labled if this were to happen now.
If the "public" were actually serious about safer roads in Ontario... they would consider greater police presence, increase the speed limit to reasonable rates (on todays 4xx series highways and modern tires and vehicles 120kph is not in any way unreasonable!) increase fines for all traffic violators (how about those burgers and cell phones?)
Oh and yeah - one more thing. Our lifestyles are all based around family, houses and... cars. Not slow, stinky ugly ones - but nice (beauty is in the eye of the beholder) and in some cases fast cars. So where are all the race tracks? Oh you mean the tracks that are 1-2 hours away. The tracks where responsible young adults take their daily drivers and get HARASSED by the very same police that should be patrolling the roads for unsafe drivers instead! If the public was serious - tracks would be in the Toronto area - where over 2 million locals could easily access it - if this was done almost everyone would be happy (almost - because you can't please everyone!).
In the end - don't come crying to me about street racing - the media and your government (I didn't vote Liberal) doesn't have a clue what it takes to really make the roads safe.
Well that's my 2 cents - for what it's worth.
Were all in this together - be good to each other and enjoy life and driving - SAFELY!
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