EK Hatch GSR swap done... few concerns
05-Apr-2006, 08:26 AM
#1
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EK Hatch GSR swap done... few concerns
just wanted to run a few concerns by you guys that i have with the gsr swap i just had done...
-secondary butterflies not opening [5800rpm or so i believe] (i heard it was a p06 ECU problem which i am using now just modified - can i use a modified p28 ecu to open those up or is there another way around it?)
-skunk2 or other aftermarket intake manifold do not have the butterlies so are they just as effective in terms of when it opens up it is equal to the reg mani with the vtec on and the butterflies open?
-noise between 2500-3500rpm like a buzzing... i've been searching for a while and the common thing is a possible cracked weld in the lower half of the exhaust manifold? quite possible because i am getting a little bit of exhaust fumes smell when i like just stop and park the car and also when i drive it a little harder... makes sense if its leaking.
-weird idle revs when the engine starts up... it drops then u touch the gas and it hops up like 900rpm then
drops and sometimes fluctuates up and down every 30 seconds or so... then it stops when its warm and then i
drive it.
i know its a lot to ask, but if anyone has feedback on this please respond ASAP so i can get this info to the shop that is taking a look at the motor and then i can have all of the stuff looked into. Thanks a lot.
-secondary butterflies not opening [5800rpm or so i believe] (i heard it was a p06 ECU problem which i am using now just modified - can i use a modified p28 ecu to open those up or is there another way around it?)
-skunk2 or other aftermarket intake manifold do not have the butterlies so are they just as effective in terms of when it opens up it is equal to the reg mani with the vtec on and the butterflies open?
-noise between 2500-3500rpm like a buzzing... i've been searching for a while and the common thing is a possible cracked weld in the lower half of the exhaust manifold? quite possible because i am getting a little bit of exhaust fumes smell when i like just stop and park the car and also when i drive it a little harder... makes sense if its leaking.
-weird idle revs when the engine starts up... it drops then u touch the gas and it hops up like 900rpm then
drops and sometimes fluctuates up and down every 30 seconds or so... then it stops when its warm and then i
drive it.
i know its a lot to ask, but if anyone has feedback on this please respond ASAP so i can get this info to the shop that is taking a look at the motor and then i can have all of the stuff looked into. Thanks a lot.
05-Apr-2006, 09:20 AM
#2
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
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Did you replace your entire exhaust with this swap?
Exhaust leaks at the manifold usually cause a sputtering sound. The buzzing is most likley a vibration of some sort; either a heat shield or maybe your shift linkage somehow touching the exhaust....
You should be asking these questions to the person who installed your engine, though.
Exhaust leaks at the manifold usually cause a sputtering sound. The buzzing is most likley a vibration of some sort; either a heat shield or maybe your shift linkage somehow touching the exhaust....
You should be asking these questions to the person who installed your engine, though.
05-Apr-2006, 01:59 PM
#7
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the smell is prolly from a leak in your exhaust and going into the cabin!! now its worst cause your not running a cat converter, same thing that happen to me, i had a leak in the flex pipe for h22 any does not have any cat , you can really smell the fume!
for the idle double check wiring or its prolly normal!
for the idle double check wiring or its prolly normal!
05-Apr-2006, 02:03 PM
#8
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^^^^ Indeed
Also the sound from 2500-3500 rpms does it sound like whirlwind kind of sound like a supercharger? cause I have a similar sound right now on my swap, but its never really affected anything so I left it.
When you say the rpms fluctuate up and down what is the range of the fluctuations? Usually the engine should rev higher around 1500 rpms to warm up and then gradually drop to 1000 rpms then 500rpms at normal operating temp.
Also the sound from 2500-3500 rpms does it sound like whirlwind kind of sound like a supercharger? cause I have a similar sound right now on my swap, but its never really affected anything so I left it.
When you say the rpms fluctuate up and down what is the range of the fluctuations? Usually the engine should rev higher around 1500 rpms to warm up and then gradually drop to 1000 rpms then 500rpms at normal operating temp.
05-Apr-2006, 02:10 PM
#9
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How is your exhaust connected up? I would guess if it could be that you have no cat and the movement of the motor back and forth loosened the bolts slightly on the header to midpipe flange causing the rattling.
As for the Secondary butterflies, alot of people either remove them or go with an aftermarket Intake Manifold. If you really want to use them I am 90% sure you would need to run a few extra wires from your ECU harness aswell as using a proper GSR ECU.
For the idle it should upon cold start rev up to 1500ish, then slowly drop down to 600rpm and stay steady. If it is not going above 1000rpm when you start it then i would take it back to whoeever installed it and have them look it over and see what they find.
As for the Secondary butterflies, alot of people either remove them or go with an aftermarket Intake Manifold. If you really want to use them I am 90% sure you would need to run a few extra wires from your ECU harness aswell as using a proper GSR ECU.
For the idle it should upon cold start rev up to 1500ish, then slowly drop down to 600rpm and stay steady. If it is not going above 1000rpm when you start it then i would take it back to whoeever installed it and have them look it over and see what they find.
05-Apr-2006, 05:15 PM
#10
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the smell seems likely that it is the cat not being there and yeah the stock exhaust is probably not helping. the smell is not really too evident today..
the pipe is just stock dx no cat and
the idles go up to maybe 1500 then slowly drop, but when I tap the throttle it revs and then drops and then climbs back up to 1500 roughly then does the same thing and drops back down normal? seems ok
the pipe is just stock dx no cat and
the idles go up to maybe 1500 then slowly drop, but when I tap the throttle it revs and then drops and then climbs back up to 1500 roughly then does the same thing and drops back down normal? seems ok
05-Apr-2006, 05:26 PM
#12
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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only a p72 obd2 which uses the postive as a signal and the obd1 negative as a signal can operate the IAB..otherwsie the ecu won;t know what to do with it and it will stay closed, resultin gin crappy low and mid range power
so unless ur using an gsr ecu then u need to change the intake manifold..
im pretty sure im right on this one.. Andrew if I'm wrong give me a smack
so unless ur using an gsr ecu then u need to change the intake manifold..
im pretty sure im right on this one.. Andrew if I'm wrong give me a smack
05-Apr-2006, 06:14 PM
#14
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Posts: 6,176
no sorry it opens at 5800, i believe, i think I typed it up wrong.. anyways I just found this on h-t..
"If your iab is stuck open, which isnt so much of a bad thing, you wont hear anything at 5800, but, you wont really be losing anything either. In this case of how your iab is opperating, you might sacrifice a little low end drivability, or maybe a little rougher idle, and if you do I doubt you will even be able to notice. Now you want the iab valves to be closed when the car is idling and when in the powerband of the lower rpm's so when you do hit 5800, the butterflies will open and you may hear that extra so called "dual stage vtec" sound that your looking for. First I would check all the vaccum lines you hooked up and wires that you added, again. Then have someone sit in the driver seat and rev the motor up into the higher rpm's. Watch the mechanism below the dashpot that controls the position of the butterflies to see if it is working. It should snap open really quick and stay open only as long as you give the car the right amount of gas and hold it at, or above that certain amount. What happens here is that when you rev the engine up to a certain point or higher, almost all of the air that was going to the vaccum ports is now being sucked straight through the intake manifold and into the head and then down into the engine leaving little or no vaccum pressure in the manifolds surrounding vaccum ports. In turn, this leaves no pressure in the vaccum line that leads to the dashpot inwhich the vaccum pressure passes through to control the iab valve to either open or close. This valve will now open because of this lack of pressure, and stay open as long as there is no vaccum to suck it back closed. This valve also controls the opening and closing of the secondary butterflies. Since the iab valve just opened because of lack of vaccum pressure the butterflies will open as well. When you let off the gas and pressure returns to all of the vaccum lines, the force in the vaccum line that attatches to this same dashpot will suck the valve closed, closing the butterflies. If you see this little rod below the dashpot move back and forth between the ups and downs of the rpm ranges that your observing then the iab is in fact working fine. Or, another way to check to see if your iab is working is to unplug the vaccum line connected to the dashpot and this will also cause the valve to open. Without vaccum, the iab will be stuck in the open position. When the vaccum is hooked up, the valve will be sucked closed along with the butterflies. The valve and butterflies will only be opened again when the vaccum presure is released caused from either disconnecting the dashpots vaccum line like I just told you to do as an easier way to check to see if ur iab is working, or by giving the motor full throttle and revving high enough to cause this lack of vaccum pressure phenomenon that will open your secondaries and let your dual stage vtec be heard. And put your finger over the hose when you check for vaccum, not the dashpot. The dashpot does not suck the air, its the other way around.
I had a usdm gsr in my 91 integra and I didnt run the iab. I took the whole iab unit completely out of the intake manifold and bolted the two intake pieces back together. Then I got rid of the black box with the iab sensor and the vaccum lines. In the end it all made for a cleaner look, two less wires I had to wire up, and no need to make sure the vaccum lines are all correct because there was no longer a need for any of them. And possibly, it gave me a little extra power. Because, without the big iab plate sandwiched between the two intake halfs, the intake manifold will be reduced in length. This shortens the intake runners a little bit, resulting in higher air velocity, and decreases the space and volume of the intake manifold, causing higher air density. By customizing the stock gsr intake manifold like this you are making it so that it will now make more power from the mid to high rpm's and especially in the higher rpm's that the power from vtec relies on. The power you will gain will out weigh any loss of low end power, fuel economy, drivability, idle stability, that is, if there is even any loss at all.
I have read articles and heard a few people say that the gsr is the worst of stock honda intake manifolds and the least desirable because of this dual stage design. I think that iab is a good functioning mechanism and is more suited for fuel economy and emitions control purposes. Something we all are not to worried about on a performance motor that requires more air and fuel as its power is to be increased. Iab will just hold any performance motor down in the long run. Because, who is going to run their stock gsr intake on a motor that they built that has everything else done on it besides the addition of lets say, the single stage design intake manifold that skunk2 makes. Skunk2 is one of the most trusted product company and supporters of aftermarket honda parts. They didnt use " dual stage vtec " for a reason in their design of an intake manifold. And for as far as I know, no other brands that produce intake manifolds utilized iab and its concept of electronic/vaccum powered air intake control.
So if I were you, I'd do what I did and remove the iab system entirely. I had zero problems with my intake setup after I removed everything. All my friends said my car was going to be slow because i was just puttin a gsr into a DA, they all said DA's are supposedly heavy and i was going to have more trouble getting it to go fast than if i were to just get a hatchback or something. All i had done to the motor was some dc 4-2-1 headers, stage 2 clutch and pressure plate, an air intake, chipped pr3 ecu, any my customized gsr intake manifold. I raced two 92-93 integra 1.7L gsr's and beat them both by a few or more car lengths, smashed on a vr6 jetta with some bolt on mods, and i know i beat a few other people, i just cant remember what else i raced while i had that motor in. I Hope any of this helps out."
"If your iab is stuck open, which isnt so much of a bad thing, you wont hear anything at 5800, but, you wont really be losing anything either. In this case of how your iab is opperating, you might sacrifice a little low end drivability, or maybe a little rougher idle, and if you do I doubt you will even be able to notice. Now you want the iab valves to be closed when the car is idling and when in the powerband of the lower rpm's so when you do hit 5800, the butterflies will open and you may hear that extra so called "dual stage vtec" sound that your looking for. First I would check all the vaccum lines you hooked up and wires that you added, again. Then have someone sit in the driver seat and rev the motor up into the higher rpm's. Watch the mechanism below the dashpot that controls the position of the butterflies to see if it is working. It should snap open really quick and stay open only as long as you give the car the right amount of gas and hold it at, or above that certain amount. What happens here is that when you rev the engine up to a certain point or higher, almost all of the air that was going to the vaccum ports is now being sucked straight through the intake manifold and into the head and then down into the engine leaving little or no vaccum pressure in the manifolds surrounding vaccum ports. In turn, this leaves no pressure in the vaccum line that leads to the dashpot inwhich the vaccum pressure passes through to control the iab valve to either open or close. This valve will now open because of this lack of pressure, and stay open as long as there is no vaccum to suck it back closed. This valve also controls the opening and closing of the secondary butterflies. Since the iab valve just opened because of lack of vaccum pressure the butterflies will open as well. When you let off the gas and pressure returns to all of the vaccum lines, the force in the vaccum line that attatches to this same dashpot will suck the valve closed, closing the butterflies. If you see this little rod below the dashpot move back and forth between the ups and downs of the rpm ranges that your observing then the iab is in fact working fine. Or, another way to check to see if your iab is working is to unplug the vaccum line connected to the dashpot and this will also cause the valve to open. Without vaccum, the iab will be stuck in the open position. When the vaccum is hooked up, the valve will be sucked closed along with the butterflies. The valve and butterflies will only be opened again when the vaccum presure is released caused from either disconnecting the dashpots vaccum line like I just told you to do as an easier way to check to see if ur iab is working, or by giving the motor full throttle and revving high enough to cause this lack of vaccum pressure phenomenon that will open your secondaries and let your dual stage vtec be heard. And put your finger over the hose when you check for vaccum, not the dashpot. The dashpot does not suck the air, its the other way around.
I had a usdm gsr in my 91 integra and I didnt run the iab. I took the whole iab unit completely out of the intake manifold and bolted the two intake pieces back together. Then I got rid of the black box with the iab sensor and the vaccum lines. In the end it all made for a cleaner look, two less wires I had to wire up, and no need to make sure the vaccum lines are all correct because there was no longer a need for any of them. And possibly, it gave me a little extra power. Because, without the big iab plate sandwiched between the two intake halfs, the intake manifold will be reduced in length. This shortens the intake runners a little bit, resulting in higher air velocity, and decreases the space and volume of the intake manifold, causing higher air density. By customizing the stock gsr intake manifold like this you are making it so that it will now make more power from the mid to high rpm's and especially in the higher rpm's that the power from vtec relies on. The power you will gain will out weigh any loss of low end power, fuel economy, drivability, idle stability, that is, if there is even any loss at all.
I have read articles and heard a few people say that the gsr is the worst of stock honda intake manifolds and the least desirable because of this dual stage design. I think that iab is a good functioning mechanism and is more suited for fuel economy and emitions control purposes. Something we all are not to worried about on a performance motor that requires more air and fuel as its power is to be increased. Iab will just hold any performance motor down in the long run. Because, who is going to run their stock gsr intake on a motor that they built that has everything else done on it besides the addition of lets say, the single stage design intake manifold that skunk2 makes. Skunk2 is one of the most trusted product company and supporters of aftermarket honda parts. They didnt use " dual stage vtec " for a reason in their design of an intake manifold. And for as far as I know, no other brands that produce intake manifolds utilized iab and its concept of electronic/vaccum powered air intake control.
So if I were you, I'd do what I did and remove the iab system entirely. I had zero problems with my intake setup after I removed everything. All my friends said my car was going to be slow because i was just puttin a gsr into a DA, they all said DA's are supposedly heavy and i was going to have more trouble getting it to go fast than if i were to just get a hatchback or something. All i had done to the motor was some dc 4-2-1 headers, stage 2 clutch and pressure plate, an air intake, chipped pr3 ecu, any my customized gsr intake manifold. I raced two 92-93 integra 1.7L gsr's and beat them both by a few or more car lengths, smashed on a vr6 jetta with some bolt on mods, and i know i beat a few other people, i just cant remember what else i raced while i had that motor in. I Hope any of this helps out."
05-Apr-2006, 09:32 PM
#16
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i guess i could use an obd1 gsr ecu and plug it in... cause i already have the obd1 conversion...
but, if i plan on going to the skunk2 intake manifold or maybe even just a type-r or something then they don't use the secondary butterflies so it shouldn't matter... am i correct?
but, if i plan on going to the skunk2 intake manifold or maybe even just a type-r or something then they don't use the secondary butterflies so it shouldn't matter... am i correct?
06-Apr-2006, 01:58 AM
#18
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Originally posted by mikepasini
i guess i could use an obd1 gsr ecu and plug it in... cause i already have the obd1 conversion...
but, if i plan on going to the skunk2 intake manifold or maybe even just a type-r or something then they don't use the secondary butterflies so it shouldn't matter... am i correct?
i guess i could use an obd1 gsr ecu and plug it in... cause i already have the obd1 conversion...
but, if i plan on going to the skunk2 intake manifold or maybe even just a type-r or something then they don't use the secondary butterflies so it shouldn't matter... am i correct?
06-Apr-2006, 02:57 AM
#19
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for idle i would check vacum lines seems like there might be a leak or even check your intake manifold gasket even a pin size hole will contribute to that problem.
as for the iab yes if you change your intake manifold you wont need a gsr ecu since the skunk2 ones dont have it.
as for the iab yes if you change your intake manifold you wont need a gsr ecu since the skunk2 ones dont have it.
06-Apr-2006, 05:02 PM
#20
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 359
You can't use a type-r or b16 intake manifold on the GSR head. GSR is all on it's own. But the b16/type r intake manifolds do interchange...
I'm getting abt of a buzz also on my b16 swap...I notice it when I'm not under load, if I'm on load I can't hear the motor because of the exhuast...
I'm getting abt of a buzz also on my b16 swap...I notice it when I'm not under load, if I'm on load I can't hear the motor because of the exhuast...
