k20vs turbo b series
05-May-2009, 01:39 PM
#21
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actually on the s2k dyno day last weekend a RSX type S came in and put down 179whp 133wtq with bolt-ons.
Later on the same day this b18c5 swapped hatch with bolt-ons and a ITR chip I gave him (not dyno tuned) made 181whp 131wtq....i'd say the 1.8L B-series is on par with the newer 2L.
The 06 SI came in and put down 183whp and 138wtq.
Again, i'll post up these dyno sheets so you guys can see what the torque/power curves look like.
Later on the same day this b18c5 swapped hatch with bolt-ons and a ITR chip I gave him (not dyno tuned) made 181whp 131wtq....i'd say the 1.8L B-series is on par with the newer 2L.
The 06 SI came in and put down 183whp and 138wtq.
Again, i'll post up these dyno sheets so you guys can see what the torque/power curves look like.
05-May-2009, 03:09 PM
#22
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Posts: 58
just wait until I post up a couple of dyno sheets and you'll see why I'm saying K's are over rated. The LSvtec VS k20 with bolt-ons especially. Won't make as much torque through the powerband eh? How about more torque except at 6000-6500rpms and more power throughout the powerband from the LSvtec. We don't have a scanner here at the shop, so i'll print out the sheets while i'm here and scan/post them when I get home later today.
I'm just going off pricing that I see for new parts. I know one shop up here charges $1600 for the Kpro alone. Sure you can get used stuff for a lot less.
I've been told by several people who own K-swapped cars what they've paid for the stuff, i'm not making these prices up out of the blue. Of course when doing a swap into a newer civic its not gunna be as much as an older civic, but we're not talking about newer civics here obviously if his options are B-series or K-series.
Did you also see the RSX's and 06 Civic SI put down around the same WHP/WTQ as the b18c5 swapped hatch with my ITR chip?
I'm not hating on K's, just stating my opinions based on what I see on a day to day basis doing what I do for a living (building/tuning cars).
I'm just going off pricing that I see for new parts. I know one shop up here charges $1600 for the Kpro alone. Sure you can get used stuff for a lot less.
I've been told by several people who own K-swapped cars what they've paid for the stuff, i'm not making these prices up out of the blue. Of course when doing a swap into a newer civic its not gunna be as much as an older civic, but we're not talking about newer civics here obviously if his options are B-series or K-series.
Did you also see the RSX's and 06 Civic SI put down around the same WHP/WTQ as the b18c5 swapped hatch with my ITR chip?
I'm not hating on K's, just stating my opinions based on what I see on a day to day basis doing what I do for a living (building/tuning cars).
05-May-2009, 03:29 PM
#24
lol
For the author of this post:
I bought a 90' CRX si T3 Turbo tuned @ 7psi w/ 197whp. (b16a1) ($3200)
Came with bunk Transmission, I'm fixing atm. (3 tranny = 1 tranny + Quaife LSD) ($1000)
I have a B20B block stripped in my basement ($400)
Wesico 9:1 84.5mm pistons and Eagle Rods ($1200)
Bored B20 block ($44 a cylinder (x4)) (84.5mm)
Looking into Knife edging & Balancing
Hoping for AEM computers, want to switch from mechanical to electronic for the turbo. (That way I can control the boost as I accelerate so I don't " spin until fourth " -Tmack)
Moral of the story
You can buy the classic car you want, do whatever the hell you want to do to it... and you'll still be cheaper than a K swap! lol
For the Record: YouTube - EG B20VTEC vs EK K20A2 <-- laugh
05-May-2009, 04:21 PM
#25
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 52
i can see this thread being a hate thread, lol. so i want to chime in
first off, Zeeman, you do know your stuff and have put my car together with Nikotine.
let's see, in N/A the K has way more potential than a B
250whp is easily attainable with bolt ons and KPro without stripping the motor down,
a B18C5 will prob only get you around 220whp with bolt ons and tuned with Zeeman, Neptune, Hondata without stripping the motor down.
in a fully built N/A K is easily capable of 300whp with tonnes of torque from the K24 bottom end. a fully built B N/A with a B20 bottom stroked, whatever will not even be close to 270whp!!
well, with induction,
bolt on turbo T3/T4 say 8 psi tuned , stock engine
a B will be around 250whp, K will be close to 300whp
A stock K can handle 350whp all day long with proper tuning, a stock B can handle 280whp all day long with tuning.
to keep it short, if money is not important, K for sure and we can all agree to that. A K with bolt ons and KPro IS a lot faster and more powerful than any B with bolt ons tuned by Zeeman or anyone else. two reasons are transmission 6sp close gear ratio and a broader power band and more torque. Zeeman , you may not agree, lol
Zeeman, why was the RSX with bolt ons putting out such bad numbers? i have seen a type s with short ram , and exhaust hitting over 185whp , was it in need of a tune up? you never stated the bolt ons, lol
what was modded to the B18C5 ? you did say stock for stock and those numbers are with YOUR ITR chip while the K was running stock computer
with your ITR chip for the B and KPro for the K, it's not gonna be close anymore right.
to the OP, lol, a turbo LS-V will be a bit cheaper than a K swap, and a lot more fun right away!! but if you wanna be gangster, K now, turbo later and you can have a 11 sec car
just my $0.02
first off, Zeeman, you do know your stuff and have put my car together with Nikotine.
let's see, in N/A the K has way more potential than a B
250whp is easily attainable with bolt ons and KPro without stripping the motor down,
a B18C5 will prob only get you around 220whp with bolt ons and tuned with Zeeman, Neptune, Hondata without stripping the motor down.
in a fully built N/A K is easily capable of 300whp with tonnes of torque from the K24 bottom end. a fully built B N/A with a B20 bottom stroked, whatever will not even be close to 270whp!!
well, with induction,
bolt on turbo T3/T4 say 8 psi tuned , stock engine
a B will be around 250whp, K will be close to 300whp
A stock K can handle 350whp all day long with proper tuning, a stock B can handle 280whp all day long with tuning.
to keep it short, if money is not important, K for sure and we can all agree to that. A K with bolt ons and KPro IS a lot faster and more powerful than any B with bolt ons tuned by Zeeman or anyone else. two reasons are transmission 6sp close gear ratio and a broader power band and more torque. Zeeman , you may not agree, lol
Zeeman, why was the RSX with bolt ons putting out such bad numbers? i have seen a type s with short ram , and exhaust hitting over 185whp , was it in need of a tune up? you never stated the bolt ons, lol
what was modded to the B18C5 ? you did say stock for stock and those numbers are with YOUR ITR chip while the K was running stock computer
with your ITR chip for the B and KPro for the K, it's not gonna be close anymore right.
to the OP, lol, a turbo LS-V will be a bit cheaper than a K swap, and a lot more fun right away!! but if you wanna be gangster, K now, turbo later and you can have a 11 sec car
just my $0.02
05-May-2009, 04:51 PM
#26
See, there are a few things you're completely wrong about here.
A stock b-series (GSR 1.8L for example) will make more than 250whp on low boost. I tuned one just last week that made 300whp 220wtq @ 9psi, completely stock engine and very basic turbo setup. There are several local people that have made even more than that on a stock b-series engine. For example, my buddy paolo, his stock LSvtec made 315whp @ 11psi (dyno sheets on my website if you wanna see them) and ITRboi from another local forum making 350whp @ 9.5(ish)psi.
I've seen a K20 (stormin normans) with bolt-ons, 3" exhaust (no bends, ended at gas tank) tuned on K-pro make about 230whp (on the same dyno I use)....not 250whp. It runs mid 11's, so you don't need a boosted k to run really good times in a gutted race car.
Why these K's made such weak numbers you say? No idea, I just was there witnessing the whole thing. Which parts was he using? Don't know, didn't ask. IMO these aren't really weak numbers for a stock engine, pretty much right where they should be. They're only rated at about 200hp at the crank from honda.
My ITR chip is as close as you can get to a "stock" ITR computer. Which there is no such thing as an obd1 stock ITR ecu, so using an obd1 ecu, you have to at least run a basemap (which is what my ITR chip is...its not a dyno tuned program). Let me spend a couple of hours on the dyno with it and we'll see what it can really do. The b18c5 had i/h/e just like the K20 did.
I agree that the n/a K-series has more potential than a n/a b-series. New technology (I-vtec) has a tendency to be better than old technology right?
What I'm just saying is....dollar for dollar, B-series is a better option. I'm not saying K's suck, there just over rated IMO. Spend $6000 even, to make 185whp 140wtq? Or you could spend $3500 on a b18c5 swap and do the same. Then start building it up and see how quickly your money disappears when building a K.
We're not talking about "if money wasn't an issues" here, we're talking about sticking to a budget. We all know K's are better if you wanna blow $20,000 doing a k-swap and building the engine....but just look at endyn's 300+hp b-series. Its clearly not impossible to build a n/a b-series to make as much as a n/a k-series.
One of the dyno sheets i'm gunna post will blow a k20 out of the water....h-series baby, 230whp 185wtq. I even overlayed it with the 195whp 145wtq K20...and trust me, its SHAMES the k.
We're comparing apples to oranges here anyways and I don't see why people are getting so butt hurt over my "k's are over rated" opinion.
My scanner is being ghey and its taking me some time to get it working, i'll post these dyno sheets I have up to show everyone what the B-series and K-series power curves look like from the dyno I use regularly.
A stock b-series (GSR 1.8L for example) will make more than 250whp on low boost. I tuned one just last week that made 300whp 220wtq @ 9psi, completely stock engine and very basic turbo setup. There are several local people that have made even more than that on a stock b-series engine. For example, my buddy paolo, his stock LSvtec made 315whp @ 11psi (dyno sheets on my website if you wanna see them) and ITRboi from another local forum making 350whp @ 9.5(ish)psi.
I've seen a K20 (stormin normans) with bolt-ons, 3" exhaust (no bends, ended at gas tank) tuned on K-pro make about 230whp (on the same dyno I use)....not 250whp. It runs mid 11's, so you don't need a boosted k to run really good times in a gutted race car.
Zeeman, why was the RSX with bolt ons putting out such bad numbers? i have seen a type s with short ram , and exhaust hitting over 185whp , was it in need of a tune up? you never stated the bolt ons, lol
what was modded to the B18C5 ? you did say stock for stock and those numbers are with YOUR ITR chip while the K was running stock computer
with your ITR chip for the B and KPro for the K, it's not gonna be close anymore right.
what was modded to the B18C5 ? you did say stock for stock and those numbers are with YOUR ITR chip while the K was running stock computer
with your ITR chip for the B and KPro for the K, it's not gonna be close anymore right.
My ITR chip is as close as you can get to a "stock" ITR computer. Which there is no such thing as an obd1 stock ITR ecu, so using an obd1 ecu, you have to at least run a basemap (which is what my ITR chip is...its not a dyno tuned program). Let me spend a couple of hours on the dyno with it and we'll see what it can really do. The b18c5 had i/h/e just like the K20 did.
I agree that the n/a K-series has more potential than a n/a b-series. New technology (I-vtec) has a tendency to be better than old technology right?
What I'm just saying is....dollar for dollar, B-series is a better option. I'm not saying K's suck, there just over rated IMO. Spend $6000 even, to make 185whp 140wtq? Or you could spend $3500 on a b18c5 swap and do the same. Then start building it up and see how quickly your money disappears when building a K.
We're not talking about "if money wasn't an issues" here, we're talking about sticking to a budget. We all know K's are better if you wanna blow $20,000 doing a k-swap and building the engine....but just look at endyn's 300+hp b-series. Its clearly not impossible to build a n/a b-series to make as much as a n/a k-series.
One of the dyno sheets i'm gunna post will blow a k20 out of the water....h-series baby, 230whp 185wtq. I even overlayed it with the 195whp 145wtq K20...and trust me, its SHAMES the k.
We're comparing apples to oranges here anyways and I don't see why people are getting so butt hurt over my "k's are over rated" opinion.
My scanner is being ghey and its taking me some time to get it working, i'll post these dyno sheets I have up to show everyone what the B-series and K-series power curves look like from the dyno I use regularly.
05-May-2009, 05:07 PM
#27
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05-May-2009, 05:10 PM
#28
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It just hit me??
You said there was a basemap for your ITR motor you where dynoing.
So technically it was'nt stock for stock. If you would have had K-Pro to tune the type-s with it would have made much better numbers then the ITR.
05-May-2009, 05:24 PM
#29
no, it would be more like, using a stock k20 basemap with the kpro.
Show me a stock ITR ecu that will plug into an obd1 harness and i'll pay for the dyno time to test the 2 cars stock ecu for stock ecu.
The 181whp b18c5 showed up at the s2k dyno day just like the RSX type-S, there was NO tuning done on either engine. Stock ITR chip on the EG (because of what i've explained above) and stock ECU on the RSX.
Yes the K-series is a better platform to build on than the b-series, but we're not talking about building engines here, the OP is talking about a K-swap or a boosted LS or LSvtec. Hell, i'd even take a mildly built LSvtec over a K-swap ANYDAY! Any time K vs B comes up, the K guys have to rely on "the K is a better platform to build on" argument...which no one is trying to refute.
Show me a stock ITR ecu that will plug into an obd1 harness and i'll pay for the dyno time to test the 2 cars stock ecu for stock ecu.
The 181whp b18c5 showed up at the s2k dyno day just like the RSX type-S, there was NO tuning done on either engine. Stock ITR chip on the EG (because of what i've explained above) and stock ECU on the RSX.
Yes the K-series is a better platform to build on than the b-series, but we're not talking about building engines here, the OP is talking about a K-swap or a boosted LS or LSvtec. Hell, i'd even take a mildly built LSvtec over a K-swap ANYDAY! Any time K vs B comes up, the K guys have to rely on "the K is a better platform to build on" argument...which no one is trying to refute.
05-May-2009, 05:32 PM
#30
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Im definetly not hating on any engine.
The LS/V me and my buddy built with all OEM parts laid down 184whp. Diffrent strokes for diffrent folks. You can afford a K do it.......if not go LS/B20/vtec so you actually have some TQ.
But if your going K you definetly need K-Pro to get the most out of it. The best mod you can get.
The LS/V me and my buddy built with all OEM parts laid down 184whp. Diffrent strokes for diffrent folks. You can afford a K do it.......if not go LS/B20/vtec so you actually have some TQ.
But if your going K you definetly need K-Pro to get the most out of it. The best mod you can get.
06-May-2009, 12:16 AM
#33
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Originally Posted by zeeman;
One of the dyno sheets i'm gunna post will blow a k20 out of the water....h-series baby, 230whp 185wtq. I even overlayed it with the 195whp 145wtq K20...and trust me, its SHAMES the k.
this build is exactly why i say k is overrated. this is a $6k build with oem parts, stock head, mugen header and stage 2 cams. what could i buy with $6k, a k20a r swap and a dc header? like Z said, nobody is here to state that k is inferior in any way. all we are saying is 220whp, 160wtq after a $10k investment is weaksauce/idiotic. i wonder what Bisi's opinion is regarding k's.......
06-May-2009, 12:32 AM
#35
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TSR Street Performance - Drag Racing | All Motor | Integra Type-R | B20 VTEC CRX | K24 EG
stock c5 shortblock, 230whp, 146wtq std. 12.25@109mph (1.8L)
stock c5 shortblock, 230whp, 146wtq std. 12.25@109mph (1.8L)
06-May-2009, 01:08 AM
#36
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Posts: 67
The proof is no-where, you need to do some research before you knock something down. If you think it takes 12 grand to make a 260whp K well thats all I need to know about your knowledge on that subject. That kind of power can be had with a stock-port head, a stock $175 RBC manifold, stock 62mm TB and some skunk 2 stage 3 cams, which ive seen used for $300. Anyways it costs money to make power NA, even the midly built K24s making 250+hp are going to be much more reliable than a B making that kind of power not to mention the only thing they share is that peak power number, the K will have 40-50+ torque throughout the midrange thanks to the huge increase in displacement and VTC.
06-May-2009, 01:17 AM
#37
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Big deal you found 1 H motor that actually made good numbers when everyone knows Hs usually show very poor dyno numbers. ALl the people I know with K20s and KPro have made well over 200whp even with a DC header.
All the top cars in the all motor class are running K-series with the exception of Bisi. Either way some of those motors are making 450+ whp.
The whole dollar for dollar argument is stupid anyways, if that were the case why even mod Hondas, they are one of the worst platforms in terms of straightline speed. Making alot of power naturally aspirated is an art and the K is simply better...
All the top cars in the all motor class are running K-series with the exception of Bisi. Either way some of those motors are making 450+ whp.
The whole dollar for dollar argument is stupid anyways, if that were the case why even mod Hondas, they are one of the worst platforms in terms of straightline speed. Making alot of power naturally aspirated is an art and the K is simply better...
06-May-2009, 09:29 AM
#38
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06-May-2009, 10:13 AM
#40
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No K-Pro for the new Si, only a reflash from Hondata. I've always wanted to dyno my 07 Si just to see what it actually puts down. My 06 Si always felt like it had a bit more power.
Even in stock form, its quick enough for me. I love the handling more then the speed.
