k20vs turbo b series
05-May-2009, 12:12 AM
#3
i say, screw the $6000-8000 k-swap that'll yeild you 185whp 140wtq, i've done plenty of LSvtecs that make more power than that, even k20's with bolt-ons are only around 195whp 145wtq, again i've done LSvtecs and ITR's that make more power than that and we're talking mild LSvtecs/ITR's.
You can't compare a boosted engine to a n/a engine. I'd take a boosted setup anyday simply because the bang for buck is much higher with boost compared to a n/a build. $5000 n/a build can make 200whp (if you use the right parts) whereas a $5000 boosted build can make 300+whp on low boost.
You can't compare a boosted engine to a n/a engine. I'd take a boosted setup anyday simply because the bang for buck is much higher with boost compared to a n/a build. $5000 n/a build can make 200whp (if you use the right parts) whereas a $5000 boosted build can make 300+whp on low boost.
05-May-2009, 12:34 AM
#7
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05-May-2009, 12:36 AM
#8
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: K-Town
Posts: 891
05-May-2009, 01:03 AM
#10
depends, what do you want out of the car?
LS turbo is a torquey fun to drive setup that builds the power quick, but the power will drop off around 6500rpms.
LSvtec turbo is torquey too, but will make way more top end power than a non-vtec setup.
Even if you can do your k-swap for $6000, by the time you get i/h/e and k-pro you'll have spent another $2500 (k-pro being $1500 alone), bringing that up to a $8500 swap to make 200-210whp 145-150wtq if you're lucky. I'm not saying that won't be fast, but do you know how fast a $8500 lsvtec would be? Or how fast a $8500 b-series swap and turbo kit would be?
I'm sorry, but i've seen plenty of k's come into the shop and put down 175whp 135wtq to around 185whp 145wtq in stock form or with a few bolt-ons, i've only seen a couple of k's locally (with my own eyes) that make more than 195whp 145wtq.
I'm not saying K's aren't good engines, they're great, but its still too much $$$ and not enough bang for buck doing a k-swap.
Imagine paying $8000 for your k-swap, then another $2500 in bolt-ons and k-pro, plus tuning. Roughly $11,000 for all that and still get walked on by much cheaper boosted D's and B's or even n/a 1.8-2L B-series setups....yikes.
MugenPower post up your modded 06 SI (k20) vs LSvtec dyno graph...or maybe i'll print one up tomorrow and scan it in, you'll see why K's are over rated IMO.
LS turbo is a torquey fun to drive setup that builds the power quick, but the power will drop off around 6500rpms.
LSvtec turbo is torquey too, but will make way more top end power than a non-vtec setup.
Even if you can do your k-swap for $6000, by the time you get i/h/e and k-pro you'll have spent another $2500 (k-pro being $1500 alone), bringing that up to a $8500 swap to make 200-210whp 145-150wtq if you're lucky. I'm not saying that won't be fast, but do you know how fast a $8500 lsvtec would be? Or how fast a $8500 b-series swap and turbo kit would be?
I'm sorry, but i've seen plenty of k's come into the shop and put down 175whp 135wtq to around 185whp 145wtq in stock form or with a few bolt-ons, i've only seen a couple of k's locally (with my own eyes) that make more than 195whp 145wtq.
I'm not saying K's aren't good engines, they're great, but its still too much $$$ and not enough bang for buck doing a k-swap.
Imagine paying $8000 for your k-swap, then another $2500 in bolt-ons and k-pro, plus tuning. Roughly $11,000 for all that and still get walked on by much cheaper boosted D's and B's or even n/a 1.8-2L B-series setups....yikes.
MugenPower post up your modded 06 SI (k20) vs LSvtec dyno graph...or maybe i'll print one up tomorrow and scan it in, you'll see why K's are over rated IMO.
05-May-2009, 02:08 AM
#11
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 67
depends, what do you want out of the car?
LS turbo is a torquey fun to drive setup that builds the power quick, but the power will drop off around 6500rpms.
LSvtec turbo is torquey too, but will make way more top end power than a non-vtec setup.
Even if you can do your k-swap for $6000, by the time you get i/h/e and k-pro you'll have spent another $2500 (k-pro being $1500 alone), bringing that up to a $8500 swap to make 200-210whp 145-150wtq if you're lucky. I'm not saying that won't be fast, but do you know how fast a $8500 lsvtec would be? Or how fast a $8500 b-series swap and turbo kit would be?
I'm sorry, but i've seen plenty of k's come into the shop and put down 175whp 135wtq to around 185whp 145wtq in stock form or with a few bolt-ons, i've only seen a couple of k's locally (with my own eyes) that make more than 195whp 145wtq.
I'm not saying K's aren't good engines, they're great, but its still too much $$$ and not enough bang for buck doing a k-swap.
Imagine paying $8000 for your k-swap, then another $2500 in bolt-ons and k-pro, plus tuning. Roughly $11,000 for all that and still get walked on by much cheaper boosted D's and B's or even n/a 1.8-2L B-series setups....yikes.
MugenPower post up your modded 06 SI (k20) vs LSvtec dyno graph...or maybe i'll print one up tomorrow and scan it in, you'll see why K's are over rated IMO.
LS turbo is a torquey fun to drive setup that builds the power quick, but the power will drop off around 6500rpms.
LSvtec turbo is torquey too, but will make way more top end power than a non-vtec setup.
Even if you can do your k-swap for $6000, by the time you get i/h/e and k-pro you'll have spent another $2500 (k-pro being $1500 alone), bringing that up to a $8500 swap to make 200-210whp 145-150wtq if you're lucky. I'm not saying that won't be fast, but do you know how fast a $8500 lsvtec would be? Or how fast a $8500 b-series swap and turbo kit would be?
I'm sorry, but i've seen plenty of k's come into the shop and put down 175whp 135wtq to around 185whp 145wtq in stock form or with a few bolt-ons, i've only seen a couple of k's locally (with my own eyes) that make more than 195whp 145wtq.
I'm not saying K's aren't good engines, they're great, but its still too much $$$ and not enough bang for buck doing a k-swap.
Imagine paying $8000 for your k-swap, then another $2500 in bolt-ons and k-pro, plus tuning. Roughly $11,000 for all that and still get walked on by much cheaper boosted D's and B's or even n/a 1.8-2L B-series setups....yikes.
MugenPower post up your modded 06 SI (k20) vs LSvtec dyno graph...or maybe i'll print one up tomorrow and scan it in, you'll see why K's are over rated IMO.
05-May-2009, 08:26 AM
#12
I should have put "in my opinion" K's are over rated.
I'm just saying, I know people who've paid between $6000-8000 for a K-swap alone. Add bolt-ons and K-pro and you've got yourself a $8500-10,000 swap. Depending on how much you're paying for labour. MOST people have to pay a shop to do their swap.
Even if you're only paying $3000 for the engine/tranny and $3000 for all the necessary parts and labour, thats still a $6000 swap with all stock parts. If you wanna buy stolen parts, yes you can get the stuff cheaper, but I, in no way shape or form recommend anyone to do this.
I don't get why more people don't build D-series engines and boost them. I've done several that are in the 300-400whp area and well under what a K-swap alone costs.
I agree, if you wanna spend a butt load of money swapping a K, then building for n/a, yes its superior....but think of how much money you'll really be spending there. If your car comes with a K its a different story. Besides, you're comparing 2-2.4L I-vtec engines to 1.6-2L engines without I-vtec.
I'm not saying K's suck, thats far from the truth, we've all seen what can be done with unlimited funds on honda-tech. I'm just saying I know what I've seen done locally and IN MY OPINION k's aren't as good as people hype them up to be.
I'll have some dyno graphs to show what i'm talking about later today when I get to the shop.
I'm just saying, I know people who've paid between $6000-8000 for a K-swap alone. Add bolt-ons and K-pro and you've got yourself a $8500-10,000 swap. Depending on how much you're paying for labour. MOST people have to pay a shop to do their swap.
Even if you're only paying $3000 for the engine/tranny and $3000 for all the necessary parts and labour, thats still a $6000 swap with all stock parts. If you wanna buy stolen parts, yes you can get the stuff cheaper, but I, in no way shape or form recommend anyone to do this.
I don't get why more people don't build D-series engines and boost them. I've done several that are in the 300-400whp area and well under what a K-swap alone costs.
I agree, if you wanna spend a butt load of money swapping a K, then building for n/a, yes its superior....but think of how much money you'll really be spending there. If your car comes with a K its a different story. Besides, you're comparing 2-2.4L I-vtec engines to 1.6-2L engines without I-vtec.
I'm not saying K's suck, thats far from the truth, we've all seen what can be done with unlimited funds on honda-tech. I'm just saying I know what I've seen done locally and IN MY OPINION k's aren't as good as people hype them up to be.
I'll have some dyno graphs to show what i'm talking about later today when I get to the shop.
05-May-2009, 08:48 AM
#13
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: At your moms
Posts: 2,633
I should have put "in my opinion" K's are over rated.
I'm just saying, I know people who've paid between $6000-8000 for a K-swap alone. Add bolt-ons and K-pro and you've got yourself a $8500-10,000 swap. Depending on how much you're paying for labour. MOST people have to pay a shop to do their swap.
Even if you're only paying $3000 for the engine/tranny and $3000 for all the necessary parts and labour, thats still a $6000 swap with all stock parts. If you wanna buy stolen parts, yes you can get the stuff cheaper, but I, in no way shape or form recommend anyone to do this.
I don't get why more people don't build D-series engines and boost them. I've done several that are in the 300-400whp area and well under what a K-swap alone costs.
I agree, if you wanna spend a butt load of money swapping a K, then building for n/a, yes its superior....but think of how much money you'll really be spending there. If your car comes with a K its a different story. Besides, you're comparing 2-2.4L I-vtec engines to 1.6-2L engines without I-vtec.
I'm not saying K's suck, thats far from the truth, we've all seen what can be done with unlimited funds on honda-tech. I'm just saying I know what I've seen done locally and IN MY OPINION k's aren't as good as people hype them up to be.
I'll have some dyno graphs to show what i'm talking about later today when I get to the shop.
I'm just saying, I know people who've paid between $6000-8000 for a K-swap alone. Add bolt-ons and K-pro and you've got yourself a $8500-10,000 swap. Depending on how much you're paying for labour. MOST people have to pay a shop to do their swap.
Even if you're only paying $3000 for the engine/tranny and $3000 for all the necessary parts and labour, thats still a $6000 swap with all stock parts. If you wanna buy stolen parts, yes you can get the stuff cheaper, but I, in no way shape or form recommend anyone to do this.
I don't get why more people don't build D-series engines and boost them. I've done several that are in the 300-400whp area and well under what a K-swap alone costs.
I agree, if you wanna spend a butt load of money swapping a K, then building for n/a, yes its superior....but think of how much money you'll really be spending there. If your car comes with a K its a different story. Besides, you're comparing 2-2.4L I-vtec engines to 1.6-2L engines without I-vtec.
I'm not saying K's suck, thats far from the truth, we've all seen what can be done with unlimited funds on honda-tech. I'm just saying I know what I've seen done locally and IN MY OPINION k's aren't as good as people hype them up to be.
I'll have some dyno graphs to show what i'm talking about later today when I get to the shop.
k series are fast with money but so is a b series...if you stroke a b series to 2.4 or even 2.2 you get serious power...i know endyn is putting 324chp out of 2.2 b series engines. i would take a b series over a k series. to me the b is like a 350 chevy, lost of cheap parts and power is easily made.
na vs turbo is just a stupid arguement...you wanna stupid fast street car you turbo it...i like na but the cost is more for less power so i guess its all personal preference.
05-May-2009, 10:13 AM
#15
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 58
i say, screw the $6000-8000 k-swap that'll yeild you 185whp 140wtq, i've done plenty of LSvtecs that make more power than that, even k20's with bolt-ons are only around 195whp 145wtq, again i've done LSvtecs and ITR's that make more power than that and we're talking mild LSvtecs/ITR's.
You can't compare a boosted engine to a n/a engine. I'd take a boosted setup anyday simply because the bang for buck is much higher with boost compared to a n/a build. $5000 n/a build can make 200whp (if you use the right parts) whereas a $5000 boosted build can make 300+whp on low boost.
You can't compare a boosted engine to a n/a engine. I'd take a boosted setup anyday simply because the bang for buck is much higher with boost compared to a n/a build. $5000 n/a build can make 200whp (if you use the right parts) whereas a $5000 boosted build can make 300+whp on low boost.
i saw 181whp this saturday on my buddys itr with a zeeman chip
05-May-2009, 10:20 AM
#16
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7
In the end it seems it's half what you want and half what you could afford.
I have a EK K20a2 hatch and I love it, would I like the turbo b just the same probably, I was just in a position to get the K series and have always liked NA builds and chose this path. Sure I'll probably only be able to afford to get the engine up to 250WHP but for a daily driver I think that will be just fine.
I have a EK K20a2 hatch and I love it, would I like the turbo b just the same probably, I was just in a position to get the K series and have always liked NA builds and chose this path. Sure I'll probably only be able to afford to get the engine up to 250WHP but for a daily driver I think that will be just fine.
05-May-2009, 10:39 AM
#17
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: K-Town
Posts: 891
A'lot of K hating going on from the Z man.
No offense but no B-series N/A is going to make the TQ threw the powerband like a K does. And since when does a k-swap cost $10G's??? What city do you live in.
And for the record you can find K-pros used for $800 to a $1000 saving you money right there. Not to mention if you already own a EP or RSX its a straight drop in, unlike a EG or EK theres alot less work.
And if you can afford it why is it a waste of money??
I've owned B's and D's, forced induction and high comp N/A builds and nothing is funner the driving the K wide open......great TQ off the line.
No offense but no B-series N/A is going to make the TQ threw the powerband like a K does. And since when does a k-swap cost $10G's??? What city do you live in.
And for the record you can find K-pros used for $800 to a $1000 saving you money right there. Not to mention if you already own a EP or RSX its a straight drop in, unlike a EG or EK theres alot less work.
And if you can afford it why is it a waste of money??
I've owned B's and D's, forced induction and high comp N/A builds and nothing is funner the driving the K wide open......great TQ off the line.
05-May-2009, 12:07 PM
#18
just wait until I post up a couple of dyno sheets and you'll see why I'm saying K's are over rated. The LSvtec VS k20 with bolt-ons especially. Won't make as much torque through the powerband eh? How about more torque except at 6000-6500rpms and more power throughout the powerband from the LSvtec. We don't have a scanner here at the shop, so i'll print out the sheets while i'm here and scan/post them when I get home later today.
I'm just going off pricing that I see for new parts. I know one shop up here charges $1600 for the Kpro alone. Sure you can get used stuff for a lot less.
I've been told by several people who own K-swapped cars what they've paid for the stuff, i'm not making these prices up out of the blue. Of course when doing a swap into a newer civic its not gunna be as much as an older civic, but we're not talking about newer civics here obviously if his options are B-series or K-series.
Did you also see the RSX's and 06 Civic SI put down around the same WHP/WTQ as the b18c5 swapped hatch with my ITR chip?
I'm not hating on K's, just stating my opinions based on what I see on a day to day basis doing what I do for a living (building/tuning cars).
I'm just going off pricing that I see for new parts. I know one shop up here charges $1600 for the Kpro alone. Sure you can get used stuff for a lot less.
I've been told by several people who own K-swapped cars what they've paid for the stuff, i'm not making these prices up out of the blue. Of course when doing a swap into a newer civic its not gunna be as much as an older civic, but we're not talking about newer civics here obviously if his options are B-series or K-series.
I'm not hating on K's, just stating my opinions based on what I see on a day to day basis doing what I do for a living (building/tuning cars).
05-May-2009, 12:23 PM
#19
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: K-Town
Posts: 891
Yeah but out of the box stock for stock......A B18c5 is not going to make more power especially TQ then a K20A. You need to build a B to make TQ.
And if you like high reving 9000rpm pulls then the K is the way to go compared to a LS/Vtec.
And if you already have a Honda that lets you do a straight K drop then you really aren't spending much. Mostly just engine tranny and K-pro. And I never said that B20/LS/Vtec's don't make good power because they do. Its just from a N/A stand point the K is a good start.
And if you like high reving 9000rpm pulls then the K is the way to go compared to a LS/Vtec.
And if you already have a Honda that lets you do a straight K drop then you really aren't spending much. Mostly just engine tranny and K-pro. And I never said that B20/LS/Vtec's don't make good power because they do. Its just from a N/A stand point the K is a good start.
05-May-2009, 01:01 PM
#20
actually on the s2k dyno day last weekend a RSX type S came in and put down 179whp 133wtq with bolt-ons.
Later on the same day this b18c5 swapped hatch with bolt-ons and a ITR chip I gave him (not dyno tuned) made 181whp 131wtq....i'd say the 1.8L B-series is on par with the newer 2L.
The 06 SI came in and put down 183whp and 138wtq.
Again, i'll post up these dyno sheets so you guys can see what the torque/power curves look like.
Later on the same day this b18c5 swapped hatch with bolt-ons and a ITR chip I gave him (not dyno tuned) made 181whp 131wtq....i'd say the 1.8L B-series is on par with the newer 2L.
The 06 SI came in and put down 183whp and 138wtq.
Again, i'll post up these dyno sheets so you guys can see what the torque/power curves look like.
