is it true that....
 

is it true that inorder to recieve a parking ticket they MUST affix it somehow to your windshield?

also, it is illegal to not have a windsheild wiperblade, is this also the case if the car is parked? (ie scared that someone will steal it?)

your scared that someone is gonna steal your wiper blade?

or was that just your story if you ever get asked about it?

my story if i ever get asked

Not having a wiper blade is more of a safety issue.

Unless your trying to beat a parking ticket ie car parked and you put the blade back on before you drive. I assume they could stick a parking ticket through the side of the DS window and the body. (see this done once before)

this is what i * heard *.

It must either be on your windshield or they must hand it to you, meaning that its properly served. So if you see them writing you up just drive away.



But the thing i've always wondered about is how they ticket motorcycles?

they dont have to affix the ticket to your windshield anymore. they changed that law after people started driving away while the meter maid was in the process of writing the ticket. if they dont put it on your car, they will mail it to you.

taking off your wiper blade to avoid parking tickets is the single stupidest idea i have heard. what are you going to do when your windshield gets dirty on the highway? stick your head out the side window? you can afford to buy a car and pay insurance and gas and maintenance, but you dont have a few dollars for parking? how about instead of trying to come up with your super clever schemes, you find a way to better your life and make more money so you can afford to pay for parking?

the plan was to take it off while you're parked........it only takes two seconds, and then put it back on when you drive.

what's your problem? having trouble satisfying your partner or something? all i did was ask a simple question no one cares whether you think it is right or wrong so keep your own opinions to yourself. start another thread if you want to talk about it. don't go into other ppl's thread and ***** it up.

hahahaha

take off your wiper all you want, they;ll just mail you the ticket

sounds like ur the one who's gettin a bit heated ERTW was just trying to explain something to u. . .relax . . it's a fourm board...

if you take out the wiper blade, they can still use the arm to hold the ticket down, unless your planning on taking the whole swiper arm off also. but then again why waste time putting it on and off, your just going to damage it with time, and lets say you don't place it properly one day and turn on the swipers hahaha there is goes when you do need it. just pay the ticket or take it to court, and they will mail it to you, in some cases they will even hand it to you at your door step.

yes due to people driving away.. they changed the law so if the officer feels he/she wants to.. they can mail it to you.. they do not have to but they can. So I would say if your going to drive off.. dont act like a jerk because they will mail it to you forsure..lol
I remember at my local plaza people would park in the fire route while they went into the pizza pizza or beer store.. parking cop would come.. take 5 mins to write the ticket.. people would come out get in there car.. cop would not be finshed.. the person drives off.. and cop just does nothing.. lol or the funniest is when they park in the fire route and then get a ticket and then proceed to act like they got a ticket for nothing.. and look all confused and upset...

I guess the problem is that most honest people think very little of dishonest people who go to lengths to avoid their legal obligations and responsibilities under the law.

To me those types of people come across as being rather, um, scummy, slimey scofflaws and weasels.

So, are you really planning to go to such lengths to avoid your legal responsibilities under the law?

And by the way, they just have to place it on your car, anywhere, between your side window glass and door sill will work nicely. The scummy slimey scofflaws and weasels will have to work a little harder to avoid paying for their parking.

Have I made my opinion clear enough for you?

by the way it's spelled slimy.

you did a good job articulating your opinion with the use of the word scofflaws. but your argument comes across weak when you miss spell simple words such as slimy. always remember that grammar and spelling reinforce the argument.

The next time you feel agitated or upset remember to take a deep breath, count to 5 and think about what you are going to say. Nobody blames you for wanting attention. It's ok. Most people on this board are understanding.

I forgive you child and please feel free try again.

I did count to 5. Then I did so again a couple of more times.

I apologize for that minor spelling mistake, but I figured that you would be able to get the gist of what was being said. From your response, it seems that you have, so the argument appears to have come across intact regardless of that minor spelling error.

Motti, you've made your point. I seed victory to you. You are the perfect example of righteousness.

I didn't start those threads to annoy you. For what it counts, I've never had a parking ticket before and i try my best to be a lawful citizen. If i had the opportunity to go back in time and do it all over again i wouldn't change a thing. I HAD to stop there, and if i receive a parking ticket so be it.

I saw a friend of mine who used to work for turnaround couriers. Last week he stopped delivering packages and took off with 2 of them. He has a narcotic addition. If you were in my position what would you have done?

I'm tired of inconsiderate people like you who go onto these forums and try to impose your own personal views onto others. I doubt you've ever experienced what my friend experiences everyday and i hope that you never do. But for people like you to go onto these forums (where other people ask for advice) and criticize them for not obeying the law unconditionally is wrong. Not everybody can be as perfect as you. Know the whole story.

I'm a third year commerce student at U of T, my tuition is outrageously high. Yes i need the money, but no it won't break my bank to pay the ticket. But i know that i could use the money elsewhere instead of on a stupid parking ticket. That's all i have to say.

I'm not imposing my opinion on you. I am merely stating my opinion on your attempt to falsify an alibi and commit perjury in the courts, which by the way constitutes a criminal act. What you do from there is up to you.

Regarding your "excuse" for parking illegally, well, everyone has an excuse why their needs trump the regulations we all live under, and everyone can also come up with an excuse as to why they shouldn't have to pay for the consequences of their choices.

But none of the excuses show up as exemptions on the parking regulation signs. If they did, we would have completely unregulated parking with all the traffic flow and safety issues that would result, because everyone has an excuse.

You say you're a student and you need the money. Ok, but so does a minimum wage earner supporting a family. Should they get a free pass for their choice to park illegally? How about others and their excuses?

The cost of parking and traffic tickets is a cost that everybody can choose to pay or not pay, in accordance with their choice to comply or not comply with the parking and traffic regulations that we, supposedly being trained drivers, should all be aware of.

If you do end up getting dinged for the cost of a ticket, it is usually a result of a deliberate choice on your part.

You speak of "being tired of inconsiderate people like me", but many of us here also get tired of inconsiderate people whose choices to break parking regs or traffic regs often results in us being held up as we try to get around that illegally stopped or parked vehicle, or avoid that moron running the light, or avoid the other idiot who just cut us off without warning.

You say it won't break the bank to pay the ticket? Ok, then pay it.

But your initial request in one of these threads asks how to best falsify an alibi so you can avoid paying the ticket, and that says more about you than it does about me challenging you on it.

Your added request in this thread as to how to avoid future parking tickets by removing your wiper blade indicates an intention to habitually park illegally and actively try to foil tickets in future. This says even more about you. Why don't you, while you're at it, also ask advice on how to falsify your insurance, your driving record, maybe defraud the social welfare system while you're at it? It's the same frame of mind at work.

Oh, and I'm not perfect. I get parking tickets too. I have one right here for when the meter ran out on me. Careless me, no excuses, I'm responsible. And thanks for reminding me.

I'll go pay it right now. By the way, you can do so too right over the phone, hardly any inconvenience at all, so there's one more excuse knocked off.

All you need is the ticket number and a credit card. I'll supply the phone number if you want for Toronto parking. You'll have to supply the ticket number and credit card.

Why are you still attacking me? Is it not enough that i already let you win? Do you really think that you are making a difference in the world by coming onto these forums and critiquing all of the flaws that the users may have? Why don't you spend just one night of your life downtown in a soup kitchen and volunteer there. You'll probably do more in that one night for the people there than you'll ever do for the people on these forums.

Yes i parked illegally but i was trying to turn a mans life around. I'm not trying to sound noble but it is just a matter of fact. When fire trucks stop traffic by taking up lines to answer false alarms they are inconveniencing traffic as well. Why don't you go to queens park to protest that.

I simply asked a question to clarify a rumour i heard. In the heat of the moment i guess i was simply very upset. Not only because of the ticket but also for my friend. However i will not apologize for asking the question. I firmly believe that individuals deserve the right to ask questions if the so desire without being verbally attacked by some stranger. What kind of society would we live in if everybody was like you?

And how do you know that the people who read the thread did not benefit or gain knowledge from it? It could easily be that they also considered the option of taking off the wiper blade, but because i had the guts to ask a question they now know the truth. Have my actions not bettered society? By going onto the discussion board and attacking people who even slightly break the law ( I've read many of the other posts and yes you are constantly arguing with other people )you discourage others from asking questions. Why do you want to live in a society where an individual cannot ask questions?

How dare you claim that illegal parking is the same frame of mind as falsifying insurance or taking advantage of the social welfare system. By that argument once a person has committed any crime, no matter how petty, they will go on to commit others. I certainly hope that you are not a politician or in any position to influence anyone for that matter. I also certainly hope that you do not have any children to corrupt. The canadian legal system is based on rehabilitation, unlike the american legal system which firmly believes in the same principles as yourself. As a result, people emerge from the canadian legal system looking forward to a second chance and to give back to society. Whereas the people who emerge from the american legal system are harder and more enraged. This is not my own argument but a well documented one based on years of research.

Instead of going online and getting a kick out of debating with strangers ( and yes you do, one simply has to go through the discussion forum to see the validity of this argument ) why don't you try to do something else? For example: If you truly believe so much in obeying the law offer a course and "******" your expertise in this subject. But, as i said before i truly hope that you are not, and will never be, in a position of influence so maybe this isn't such a good idea for you after all.

are you guys trying to see who can fit the most words in a post, cause they keep getting bigger.

if you get a parking ticket just go into the office and say that you just didn't see the sign, and they'll let it go....don't you watch tv?

Been there, done that. Did the meals on wheels bit, and I'm still on the volunteer list to transport patients to the hospital for their cancer and dialysis treatments. All in all, I put in about 20 or so volunteer hours a month. Is that satisfactory for you? How about you?

We all KNOW that fire trucks and ambulances usually make their stops for bonafide life-and-death non-trivial reasons. That's not the same as an individual deciding when their reason is good enough, because again, everyone can come up with an excuse if pressed. Also, we all know that part and parcel of those vehicles is a huge amount of supporting equipment that must be kept available and close at hand. You can park around the corner and still be effective in visiting your friend - an ambulance or fire truck cannot.

The question you asked in one place was on how to circumvent the law, and in another place, how to break the law. If you ask such a question in a public place, you should be prepared for whatever public response your question provokes. That is the price of asking questionable things in a public place.

Now, if you had wrongly received a ticket and were questioning how to go about legitimately challenging it, my response would have been much different.

By all means, ask the question. But if the question regards doing something that you KNOW is obviously dodgy, you should expect that someone, me in this case, may challenge you on it. For instance, what do you think the response would be if you asked how to fake a handicapped parking permit. Or better yet, how to defraud the welfare system? Has not my denunciation of socially-reprehensible behaviour not helped society by pointing out the questionable ethics behind such a course of action? Maybe the next person will now say, no, that is a slimy (note the spelling) thing to do, and no, I won;t do it now. Go ahead and ask the question, then consider the tone of the responses. You're old enough to drive, so you must be old enough to accept criticism for asking about how to commit an unethical act.

What's the difference? You're trying to screw the system. One, by asking how to go about creating a false alibi to avoid payment of a ticket. Two, by asking if you can avoid legitimate tickets in future by removing your wiper. What's the difference between those and trying to fraudulently gain other benefits to which you are not entitled? Goes back to Ethics 101.

Ok, AFTER you are convicted for perjury, I'm all for you getting your second chance. I'm a firm believer in rehabilitative justice systems, and you won't find in me a big fan of the American justice system that needlessly has the largest per capita imprisonment ratio in the western world.

BUT, for rehabilitation to successfully occur, there must first be acknowledgement of having done wrong by the person being rehabilitated. There is no rehabilitative value gained by some someone who uses a false alibi and commits perjury to avoid the legal consequences of a wrongful act, be it major or minor.

But I am spreading my expertise, right here, right now. Topics like this bring out the issue of right and wrong, and what constitutes fair game in dealing with one's challenges in life. You may not agree, but those who actively consider setting up false alibis and commiting perjury might not be the ideal audience with which to have such a discussion of ethics and the social contract that we must abide by while living as just another member of our society.

Oh and "Why are you still attacking me? Is it not enough that i already let you win?"

Well, I'm not "attacking" you. You raised issues in your response, and I return to address them. What shall you raise next?

* excuse my lame method of quoting

"Been there, done that. Did the meals on wheels bit, and I'm still on the volunteer list to transport patients to the hospital for their cancer and dialysis treatments. All in all, I put in about 20 or so volunteer hours a month. Is that satisfactory for you? How about you?"

I volunteered at the food bank during high school and stayed there ever since. But i only do about 12 hours a month b/c of other commitments ( full time school, part time job etc)



"We all KNOW that fire trucks and ambulances usually make their stops for bonafide life-and-death non-trivial reasons..... You can park around the corner and still be effective in visiting your friend - an ambulance or fire truck cannot."

I've stated before that i have never received a parking ticket. I don't park illegally just to convenience myself. I did not stop to visit my friend. He stopped showing up for work a week ago and took off with some packages. He was on his bike so i got out of my car to run after him. (It was downtown TO, it would've been impossible to chase him in my car). The company he used to work for is called turnaround couriers, look it up to see what kind of people are employed and maybe you'll understand why i was concerned.

You also stated that you received a parking ticket just the other day because the time expired. were you thereby being inconsiderate and inconveniencing others driving down the street? (This is what you claimed of me) Of course not. You were most likely in a part of the city that has been designated for cars to park. For the record, there were cars in front of me and cars behind me. The only difference being that there were drivers in the other cars.

You received that ticket for no other reason than to increase the city's revenue and for that officer to meet his quota.


"The question you asked in one place was on how to circumvent the law, and in another place, how to break the law. If you ask such a question in a public place, you should be prepared for whatever public response your question provokes. That is the price of asking questionable things in a public place."


Forum rules - How do I report a thread that is improper or offensive?
If you feel that a post is inappropriate or is in violation of club/forum rules, use the "report this post to a moderator" function located at the bottom of EVERY post (you'll need to be registered on the forum). By using this button, the moderator(s) of that particular forum will receive an email telling them of the post, where it will be up to them to decide if it is acceptable or not.

If you truly felt that the question was dodgy and inappropriate you could've reported it. Might not be too late.

I've stated my stance on being able to ask questions in my previous reply. I do not believe that there should be a price to ask questions. I'm assuming you meant to reinforce the argument you just made about certain questions provoking certain responses.



"By all means, ask the question. But if the question regards doing something that you KNOW is obviously dodgy, you should expect that someone, me in this case, may challenge you on it. For instance, what do you think the response would be if you asked how to fake a handicapped parking permit. Or better yet, how to defraud the welfare system? Has not my denunciation of socially-reprehensible behaviour not helped society by pointing out the questionable ethics behind such a course of action?"

Challenging someone is different than repeatedly interfering with the thread. You've already made your point very clear, is it really necessary for you to continue to challenge the topic? I have already acknowledge your opinion on the matter and now you're just deliberately and unremittingly challenging (by your own definition) me for sport.

"Maybe the next person will now say, no, that is a slimy (note the spelling) thing to do, and no, I won;t do it now. Go ahead and ask the question, then consider the tone of the responses. You're old enough to drive, so you must be old enough to accept criticism for asking about how to commit an unethical act."

You just repeated the point i made earlier. I'm not gonna bother posting it again, you can go back and read it if you so desire.

I have already accepted your criticism and acknowledged it. I am simply refuting it because i do not agree with your opinion.

Yes, congratulations on the spelling. You learn quick.


"What's the difference? You're trying to screw the system. One, by asking how to go about creating a false alibi to avoid payment of a ticket. Two, by asking if you can avoid legitimate tickets in future by removing your wiper. What's the difference between those and trying to fraudulently gain other benefits to which you are not entitled? Goes back to Ethics 101."

If you would like to debate ethics, look up bruce fee, (i think that is how you spell it, he also enjoys to debate ethics like yourself), but is less annoying and does not regard himself so highly.

I am not trying to screw the system, instead i am simply trying to bypass it. Parking tickets generate a lot of revenue for the city so i am certain that they just thrive on people who park illegally. That is the real reason that the downtown core has such a high percentage of parking enforcers per square foot. I imagine that there is a parking enforcer for every block.

There are a lot of other ridiculous fees imposed upon us (ie licence plate renewal). If it were not for those i wouldn't mind paying for the one parking ticket I've received. The law states that i have done something wrong. I do not believe i have done anything wrong ethically or that i have inconvenienced anyone. therefore i am looking for alternate ways to resolve the matter. Money is not the deciding factor. I did not block anybody, it was a side street, and there were other cars all around mine.

"Ok,......BUT, for rehabilitation to successfully occur, there must first be acknowledgement of having done wrong by the person being rehabilitated. There is no rehabilitative value gained by some someone who uses a false alibi and commits perjury to avoid the legal consequences of a wrongful act, be it major or minor."

Remorse is made in hindsight, and hindsight is always 20/20.

"But I am spreading my expertise, right here, right now. ..... society."

What makes you an expert on this subject? Credentials please. With respect to your point about being another member of society, please refer to my rebuttal above regarding the city thriving on parking tickets. People who pay for the parking tickets are crucial members of society.

"You raised issues in your response, and I return to address them."

I disagree. You've already made your point clear and now are just doing this for sport.

how about when someone takes your parking ticket off your car...(drunk bastards)..and you come back...you see no ticket on your car...then what?

"I guess the problem is that most honest people think very little of dishonest people who go to lengths to avoid their legal obligations and responsibilities under the law."

I consider myself a very honest person.

I also believe I have absolutely zero legal obligations and responsibilities to or under the law. I have never agreed to follow what the powers that be have proclaimed.

i think being forced to pay heavy taxes to support others while the politcians get rich sucks... i'm forced to pay unemployment insurance for example.. i don't want to... to hell with it.

work the system as best you can... cause the system gets us more than we can them.

THANK YOU

Consider the following statement:

That's considered anarchy, which matches your anarchist avatar. That sort of philosophy may work well for an individual living alone on a desert island, but as population and density increases, such a philosophy can only lead to chaos and disorder, or in other words, anarchy, and nobody benefits from anarchy in the long run except for the strongest, at least until someone even stronger comes along.

I know an apologist for Paul Bernardo. No doubt that given the opportunity, Bernardo would also express his thanks for the "understanding".

Speaking of Paul Bernardo, I'm sure he also felt "absolutely zero legal obligations and responsibilities to or under the law." It doesn't change the fact that he was still held answerable to them.

Before you say that Bernardo is far and away from what we're talking about here, consider that Bernardo represents the ultimate expression of where your line of thinking leads. Once on the slippery slope, one can rationalize or excuse any action.

As for "thank you", you will always be able to find someone to back your position, no matter what that position is or how wrong it is. That a self-acknowledged anarchist backs your anti-regulation view is no great achievement.

By the way, just for you, rrspexpress, see Save your feeble excuses

motti... I agree with your highly detailed understanding of anarchism.

harming another human being for passion and simply not respects the wishes of one for monetary gain are two very different things.

Murder and disrespect are very very different things.

What do you think of police officers who are charged with corruption? Are they like Paul Bernardo?

Are people who work a cash job once a month without claiming it on their taxes to be equated with a rapist and murderer?

--

the strongest will always be at the top, regardless of what 'laws' are established.

why do people listen to police? because they have guns which makes them more powerful. what happens when people don't listen and follow the rules? let's look at george bush.

i believe hitler created rules and established a lot of laws, would you equate Paul Bernardo to German's in Germany who did not respect Hitler's laws?

Actually, murder and disrespect are the same thing - murder is merely a disrespect for the victim taken to extremes.

Any person who willfully violates one law has already cross a personal threshhold from which it becomes easier to violate the next law. The only thing standing in the way is the law, the probablility of getting caught breaking the law, and the social and legal consequences that will follow.

When people choose to break the law, they effectively assess the potential penalty against the risk of being caught. A parking ticket has a fairly kow penalty, which is why I'm surprised at the mock indignation and the extent to which rrspexpress would go to avoid payment for that violation. I mean really, is avoiding a $20 civil penalty worth the time and effort to go about fabricating a fake alibi, the time to go to court to fight a charge with a fabricated alibi, and risk potential criminal charges of perjury in doing so? The way some people's minds work, I don't know...

Regarding Hitler and deliberately violating some of the laws he enacted, there are two sides to that. Hitler enacted some incredibly unjust laws from a human rights standpoint, even by the lower human rights standards of that time. But he also enacted a number of laws and regulations that made per-WW2 Germany one of the most efficient and orderly societies in Europe. A Hitler stripped of his antisemitic and conquestual ambition could have built Germany into the commercial and industrial powerhouse of the world today, well ahead of the US. Unfortunately, such was not to be.

I won't argue that some laws should not be disregarded, but there is a difference between civil disobediance against laws that are obviously unjust from a universal human rights point of view, and those that are inconvenient from a personal point of view.

Had our rrspexpress guy been railing against laws enshrining apartheid, I would have sympathy and would stand with him on the issue.

But he's not. He's railing against having been caught violating laws intended to facilitate the flow of traffic in the city. In other words he placed his own self-interests, however he chooses to define them, above those of the greater social interest.

Unlike railing against obviously unjust laws such as apartheid and other forms of discrimination, there is no noble purpose in violating parking or other driving regs. It is simply an exercise of furthering one's own selfish interests over others, and cannot be compared with opposing, say, one of Hitler more unjust laws.

The same goes for tax cheats and others who avoid their part of the social contract. You can argue that you were not personally consulted on tax and other regulatory laws, and because you do not accept them, that you should not be subject to them. However, by continuing to maintain residence in this jurisdiction, you tacitly agree to be bound by those laws, and agree to be prosecuted for violating them if caught.

If you truly disagree with such laws, be they minor or major, you always have the option to express your opposition by working to change the laws through the democratic process, or failing that, to move to a jurisdiction where there are laws that you do agree with. But you do not have the right to expect that you should be able to disgregard with impunity whatever law of the day you do not agree with.

you take your arguments with extreme examples, but you say others may not take things to the extreme.

Read what you wrote. ;)

I do not have to follow your rationale. Canada is a great place to live. I do not have to agree to anything to continue living here. By not jailing or deporting me and using your logic, Canada agrees to let me live my life the way I have up to this very moment. If not, they are free to get rid of me.

I don't choose to break the law. I choose to ignore it.

When a person who has murdered his family does not get charged because of a stupid mistake the police made I lose faith in you legal system.

When a person is charged with assault, possession of a firearm, kidnapping, break and entering, and a whole bunch of other charges over one incident and they only get 2 weeks jail (that's with priors) I lose faith in your legal system.

When those responsible for maintaining your rules of justice are constantly being charged with corruption, theft, collaboration with corporations and criminals I lose faith in your legal system.

When those responsible for enforcing your justice system oppose being tested to see whether they comply themselves (ie drug testing), and especially when they themselves committing illegal actions to the point where other 'law enforcement agents' report them and have them charged, I no longer have any faith in your legal system.

From what I see, what I read, what I observe, human society is not something worth helping.

people = sh1t

I spit on your legal system.

I will live my life however I want, and I will do whatever I want. I am against murder, theft, violence for reason other than physical survival. My idea of theft may be different than yours.

I am just glad that most of the morals my parents have instilled upon me co-incide with that of our government.

Democracy is a waste of time. Helping society is a waste of time. I live my life to pursue my goals, my dreams, and try to hold fast a successful future. As long as the ones I love are close to me, the rest may perish.

----

So Motti, you've never taped a show off TV? You've never copied a computer game? You're never copied an audio tape or burnt a CD which you never purchased? My guess is you're a hipocrite and you like to argue. If that is the case, more power to you.

Actually, the fact that those responsible for maintaining OUR rules of justice are also subject to being charged shoulkd they violate those rules says much about our system. It says that nobody is above the law, not the cops, and certainly not you.

You say that "human society is not something worth helping."

If that's your world view, then you are a taker. Perhaps you feel that is an admirable trait, but that kind of thinking does not make society a better place.

the enforcers do not want to be subject and represent themselves officially as that.

how many government officials have you heard of being in scandals and how many have been charged/arrested for theft and collaboration?

They ARE above the law if you look at their actions vs consequences.

The law is flawed. A good lawyer will get you off almost no matter what.

I am not a taker. I give my love, respect, and help to those who I know deserve it. I do not waste it on ingrates.

If this makes me a taker, then so be it.

That's a consequence of the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. I suppose we could make the system more "efficient" by replacing that with a presumption of guilt until proven innocent instead, but I shudder at the possible consequences of such a shift. Even as it is with a presumption of innocence, we still manage to mistakenly convict the innocent far too often.

Like they say, even once is too much, so I'll settle for a few more guilty escaping punishment rather than seeing a few more innocent convicted wrongly.

And you are a taker. Your own comments paint you as such. You care only for yourself, and the collective society be damned. If that works for you, fine, but that promotion of self-interest over all else does not help improve the greater society in which we live our lives.

how about abolishing the legal system.

someone does something, you do something about it. don't hide behind others.

If that is your definition of a taker, sure, by your definition I am.

I do not believe in helping everyone. I am an elitest. I do give to my friends, quite a bit actually, because to me, they matter.

So we're no longer debating because we agree.

You never do anything illegal at all, in any form... because downloading mp3s for albums you haven't purchased is illegal, is theivery, and would later bring you to murder.

while i'm a taker, who doesn't help greater society.

---

i do have a question. i give taxes and do not believe in frauding the government for money really, so am i more of a taker then someone who has been on welfare and barely ever worked?

Ah yes, get rid of the legal system and replace it with what - vigilante justice. Have you ever looked into the success/failure rate of vigilante justice with respect to action taken against persons later found to be innocent?

As for the slippery slope to murder path - I'm leaving out crimes of passion here and focusing strictly on premeditated, intentional crimes - take a look at the biographies of some of the more notorious people in prison today. Very, very few ever started with murder. Their histories show a definate progression.

I'm not saying every thief or scam artist will one day progress to the ultimate crime, but someone who eschews such conduct entirely will be far less likely to go further down that slope.

Dishonesty in a person, propensity to commit premediated crime, has a way of growing exponentially, so to speak. There's plenty of research on the topic available. Go do some reading about slippery slopes.

1. Physical justice will occur at one point or another. Either the community, the local authorities, or the military, someone will eventually force violence upon another. How can you say You should never break the law when the German's in world war 2 had some interesting laws that you may not agree with. Putting humans into ovens was not a passion crime, but a day job for some Nazis. Would you consider them criminals? To their countrymen, they were honest workers.

2. Not paying York university a parking fee because you don't want to has nothing to do with dishonesty. I fail to see any logic saying that not paying an institution for you leaving your car there will lead to rape and murder. If someone is torturing an animal for fun, then I would be inclined to agree, but pissing on the rules and regulations of governments, organizations, and institutions really does not make one a criminal, weasel, or scum bag.

3. You're logic is entirely flawed. For example, if you look at people charged with drunk driving, almost all of them not only have sped at one point in their lives, but most of them have driver's licenses. Thus, not only does speeding encourage people to drink and drive, but the root of the problem is getting a driver's license. If people charged with drinking and driving never got a license, and never drove, they would have never comitted that crime. This is what you are saying.

All slippery slope arguments I have read are by religous fundamental nimrods who are not in any position to discuss anything with logic or reason considering their view on the world is based on faith, not logic, data, and fact.

Masturbation leads to sexual deviancy and rape

marijuana leads to crack and heroin (suprisingly caffiene doesn't necessarily lead to speed which would have a much stronger link)

acceptance (not just tolerance) or 'evil' movies like harry potter involving blasphemous material such as witchcraft will lead to satanism.

yes, i know the slippery slope argument. It's a good thing it's a shallow argument.

-----

Seriously now, I wish to ask you, do you own a computer with absolutely zero pirated software and data? I don't really need an answer, I already know it. You don't need to be dishonest about it, I don't want to be morally responsible for your future actions.

The software on my computer is 100% legitimately obtained. It is either freeware, or it is shareware for which I have paid the suggested price, or it is retail software properly purchased and licensed through retail channels.

Any mp3s on my computer are legally obtained, downloaded either with explict permission to do so by the given artist from the artist's web site, or by purchase through Puretracks, or by downloading music tracks put out for download with the artist's and/or label's explicit permission through the mp3.com site.

I don't try to rationalize why I should be able to take without payment that which is not mine, why certain traffic regs should not apply to me, why I should evade fine payments resulting from my choices, or why I should cheat on my taxes.

Others may do so for whatever reason, but it still comes down to varying degrees of dishonesty, period. Some think if you can get away with it that it is not dishonest. That's like cheating on the wife - if nobody knows, nobody gets hurt, right? But it is still dishonest.

I think that those who deliberately do so are doing wrong. They may not yet be master criminals of the worst sort, but they are cheats and scofflaws no matter how they justify what they do. If you fall into that bucket, then you do so by your own choices.

I don't apologize for living my life as honestly as possible. As far as I'm concerned, it's the thieves and scofflaws that should apologize to the rest of us for their deliberate moral lapses, lapse of which the rest of us ultimately end up paying for.

It's not about rationalizing.. it's about caring.

Congrats to you though.

sheep.

So you equate honesty as being sheep-like?

Ok, but it's rarely the sheep who create problems in society. The wolves are another matter though...

I believe you are a liar.

Just because one does not follow the herd, does not mean one is a sheep.

I try to avoid the government and police as much as I can, yet,

-I have a career driven full time job.
-I do not believe in casual violence.
-I do not believe in the destruction and vandalism of the property of others.
-I ensure all hardware/software at the company I am with is legal with audits of my own.
-I give my legal share of taxes.


Just because I spit on the legal system, does not mean I'm a criminal. Have you ever thought maybe some people have had experiences other than your own? Try being 17, walking home, and a cop throwing you to the ground, putting his boot on your throat because he thought you were involved in something going on in the area.

Cheating with your wife and copying a Metallica album are two very different things. Your wife/woman has given you her trust and you have accepted it (assuming you're not in an open relationship). The two of you have an agreement and it is understood you will not share your peepee with anyone else.

Metallica on the other hand, whatever. They're a bunch of whining idiots. You have made no promises to them whatsoever. You owe them nothing. Not paying for a copy of their garbage album in no way involves you breaking anything you have sworn to uphold, thus, you are not being dishonest.

Copying am album involves theft of intellectual property, not something tangible, as if that were the case, I would agree with you. But copying 'intellectual property' from Metallica or Jay-Z.... whatever.. if you weren't going to buy it in the first place.. they wouldn't have made that sale anyway.

The problem isn't the sheep or the wolf. It's the sheppard who leads his flock down a rocky cliff 'cause he wants to get laid.

The sheep would be better off free to roam the plains.

while I completely agree with Bruce that Parking illegally isn't going to lead to rape and murder. I find that the amount of time and effort spent trying to avoid the ticket can be greatly reduced if someone was to just park legally. ok so you might have to walk. or take a bus or leave home earlier to have enough time to find a place to park. or buy a parking pass. but hey it's much less hassle. personally I can't be bothered trying to find a way loop hole to defeat the system when I can just play within the rules in the first place. seriously when I was in school I had time to ride buses and look for parking spots and walk... I was also healthier because of it.. hmmm that could be something there...

anyways reading Bruce's last post it looks likeyou guys are completely off topic...

You can believe anything you want. Does the concept of honesty real shock you? Maybe that says more about your attitude than anything else.

You make no promises to the local storekeeper or auto mechanic either. Does that make stealling off the shelves or refusing to pay labour charges ok? There is an implied social contract that you will pay for goods or services that are offered for sale and that you receive (or take) from others. Anything less is theft.

Metallica's music is their livelihood. It earns them money, and money is tangible. If you don't believe so, let me steal the fruits of a few hours of your work against your will and without any payment to you, and then you tell me if I haven't taken anything from you.

For you to take without payment is theft no matter how you rationalize it.

That makes you a thief, no matter how you rationalize it.

If that represents your moral compass, you're headed down the wrong path.

I disagree.

:)