Spring rates for a street setup (Gatherer?)
20-Jan-2004, 12:42 PM
#1
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Spring rates for a street setup (Gatherer?)
If i do decide to stick with my coilovers what spring rates should i use in the front... I have 450/ 350 I want a street setup not autox
I know it was said in another thread, but theres too many to sift through... sorry
I know it was said in another thread, but theres too many to sift through... sorry
20-Jan-2004, 01:22 PM
#2
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well 350 and 450 is slightly stiffer then a ITR spring rate.
so thats still comfortable. the key you have to look at is length of the spring the shorter it is the quicker it'll run out of length to compress....
anyways with 350 and 450 I'd but the 350 on the front ... many will giuve the dumbass answer of "but the engine is in the front and heavier and needs the stiffer springs" to which I say well 350 is stiffer then stock front springs and those seem to work don't they?
so 350 in the front and 450 int he rear this will give you a rear end that will be easy to swing out.... I'd suggest no rear sway bar and adding a front sway bar to this to balance it out to netrual.
now if you like honda engineers and believe they are the smartest people int he world (which I do) you'll ignore me and do the opposite... 350 int he back... and no IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF THE ENGINE.... (which I know someone will mention that the engineers would switch them because of the engine...
)
the reason honda engineers would switch them is because the civic never was designed for the track it was designed for the street and keeping that in mind and for the average driver they believe that a "push conditioon" or understeer is easier for an average driver to control.
either way your car will handle differently it's a choice you have to make if you want the car to handle like it does now go with the engineers... 350 in the back don't worry my feelings will recover...
but if you want something different and interesting but possibly dangerous well then try 350 in the front since this will dramatically change your handling...
and if you want autoX advice (just because I like dishing it out)
scrap the 350 for 800 springs and throw them in the rear with the 450 in the front....
so thats still comfortable. the key you have to look at is length of the spring the shorter it is the quicker it'll run out of length to compress....
anyways with 350 and 450 I'd but the 350 on the front ... many will giuve the dumbass answer of "but the engine is in the front and heavier and needs the stiffer springs" to which I say well 350 is stiffer then stock front springs and those seem to work don't they?
so 350 in the front and 450 int he rear this will give you a rear end that will be easy to swing out.... I'd suggest no rear sway bar and adding a front sway bar to this to balance it out to netrual.
now if you like honda engineers and believe they are the smartest people int he world (which I do) you'll ignore me and do the opposite... 350 int he back... and no IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF THE ENGINE.... (which I know someone will mention that the engineers would switch them because of the engine...
)the reason honda engineers would switch them is because the civic never was designed for the track it was designed for the street and keeping that in mind and for the average driver they believe that a "push conditioon" or understeer is easier for an average driver to control.
either way your car will handle differently it's a choice you have to make if you want the car to handle like it does now go with the engineers... 350 in the back don't worry my feelings will recover...
but if you want something different and interesting but possibly dangerous well then try 350 in the front since this will dramatically change your handling...
and if you want autoX advice (just because I like dishing it out)
scrap the 350 for 800 springs and throw them in the rear with the 450 in the front....
20-Jan-2004, 01:39 PM
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ok hehe, thanks for the advice, im better at handeling a tail letting loose first oversteer i guess..... i perfer to feel the tail slipp abit than i know im going to hard... I guess its from driving RRD trucks my whole life i donno, i just feel more comfortable with it.. I hate the sensation of going straight with the wheels turned...
20-Jan-2004, 01:41 PM
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one other thing, if i do go with this setup, which means keeping the coilovers... where should i got to get weighd, and what do you think its gonna cost? do they do alighnments there too ...ect...
20-Jan-2004, 01:50 PM
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well the key to doing the dropping and corner wieghing and alignment properly is to do them in the right order...
first at stock ride hieght.. have the toe adjusted....
then get the drop in place....
then get the car corner wieghed...(I do not know where to get this done but Pete or Andrew at wheel and tire zone will know tell them Jason with the blue civic that drives his dad's minivan sent you ... (I just had them put dunlops on the minivan)...
then get the camber adjusted...
remember only toe is adjustable in stock form. you will need adjustable upper arms to fix the camber.
as for castor ... switch the left and right upper arms in the front .. that will help out with the castor and make the car follow your turn in better.
I hope this helps
first at stock ride hieght.. have the toe adjusted....
then get the drop in place....
then get the car corner wieghed...(I do not know where to get this done but Pete or Andrew at wheel and tire zone will know tell them Jason with the blue civic that drives his dad's minivan sent you ... (I just had them put dunlops on the minivan)...
then get the camber adjusted...
remember only toe is adjustable in stock form. you will need adjustable upper arms to fix the camber.
as for castor ... switch the left and right upper arms in the front .. that will help out with the castor and make the car follow your turn in better.
I hope this helps
20-Jan-2004, 02:35 PM
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ok cool, i thought toe could be adjusted while lowered...new to me..
what year/modle car's swaybar will fit a 97dx? Ive been hesititant about getting one cuz I dont know what size/ what car to take one from.. I might be hitting up a good wreking yard while im in montreal this weekend in search of some sir door panles and possibly my b20z if i stumble across the right deal So id like to keep an eye out for the swaybar too
what year/modle car's swaybar will fit a 97dx? Ive been hesititant about getting one cuz I dont know what size/ what car to take one from.. I might be hitting up a good wreking yard while im in montreal this weekend in search of some sir door panles and possibly my b20z if i stumble across the right deal
So id like to keep an eye out for the swaybar too
20-Jan-2004, 02:50 PM
#8
SiR bar is direct fit. For the front you have to change lower control arms to get a sway bar up in there like I did. Also, a GSR bar is the same shape, but you need different end links - SiR endlinks don't work - they are too thick to fit through the hole on the GSR bar.
Toe can be adjusted via tie rods... just to let you know. I didn't read the thread, but whatever.... just so you know. In the rear, toe is also adjustable by that big *** bushings that looks like a bowtie kinda.
Toe can be adjusted via tie rods... just to let you know. I didn't read the thread, but whatever.... just so you know. In the rear, toe is also adjustable by that big *** bushings that looks like a bowtie kinda.
20-Jan-2004, 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by bbarbulo
SiR bar is direct fit. For the front you have to change lower control arms to get a sway bar up in there like I did. Also, a GSR bar is the same shape, but you need different end links - SiR endlinks don't work - they are too thick to fit through the hole on the GSR bar.
Toe can be adjusted via tie rods... just to let you know. I didn't read the thread, but whatever.... just so you know. In the rear, toe is also adjustable by that big *** bushings that looks like a bowtie kinda.
SiR bar is direct fit. For the front you have to change lower control arms to get a sway bar up in there like I did. Also, a GSR bar is the same shape, but you need different end links - SiR endlinks don't work - they are too thick to fit through the hole on the GSR bar.
Toe can be adjusted via tie rods... just to let you know. I didn't read the thread, but whatever.... just so you know. In the rear, toe is also adjustable by that big *** bushings that looks like a bowtie kinda.
lol haha, gotta pay to play. I guess a wreking yard cant be to pricey... A perfect score for me would be a rear ended SIR that hasnt been raped yet! id go to town on it!Yah front toe is tie rods, and the rear well the last guy who did my alighnment chewed the hell out of that bushing, everythings seized up now grrr... needs new bolt/bushing...
I hope the ES master kit comes with those bushings, so i can strike that job off the list
I still dont understand why toe cant be adjusted while lowered 1.5'
and if i do go with the sir setup in the front, the endlinks will be compatible also right? or do i have to buy aftermarket ones? Ill just forget the GSR bar, it seems like too much headachs
20-Jan-2004, 03:46 PM
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it can be adjusted but to get the best setup I suggest doing so before lowering....
remember when corner wieghing the car yoiu want to follow the foloowing guides...
1) the wieght on each corner will not be the same when done...
2) you want to wiegh the car with you in it.
3) the wieght of the car should be looked at as percentage of the total of one side... so if the left side of the car wieghed a total of 2000 pounds but the left side was a total 1200 pounds and the front left was 800 pounds then the front left would be 66.67% not 40%
4) you trying to balance the front to total percentage on both sides... so with the above examplew the right side wieghs in at 800 pounds so you'd want the front right to wiegh 533.36 pounds. this results in 66.67% of the wieght in the front... of course if you want 60/40 wieght distribution you'll have to shift some wieght ... your aim is a 50/50 front to rear wieght balance... or close to it.....
remember when corner wieghing the car yoiu want to follow the foloowing guides...
1) the wieght on each corner will not be the same when done...
2) you want to wiegh the car with you in it.
3) the wieght of the car should be looked at as percentage of the total of one side... so if the left side of the car wieghed a total of 2000 pounds but the left side was a total 1200 pounds and the front left was 800 pounds then the front left would be 66.67% not 40%
4) you trying to balance the front to total percentage on both sides... so with the above examplew the right side wieghs in at 800 pounds so you'd want the front right to wiegh 533.36 pounds. this results in 66.67% of the wieght in the front... of course if you want 60/40 wieght distribution you'll have to shift some wieght ... your aim is a 50/50 front to rear wieght balance... or close to it.....
20-Jan-2004, 04:31 PM
#12
stiffer <=> not equal to <=> better
ever seen the 24 hours of LeMans... do you know why Panoz lost to Audi? Of course not... their susp was valved too stiff, with spring rates too high for the track. They bounced around the track, while Audi glided around the track, ultimately getting better tire wear and more traction. Lesson to be learned... a suspensions is supposed to ABSORB bumps, NOT to skip over them. Hug the road, NOT float over it.
ever seen the 24 hours of LeMans... do you know why Panoz lost to Audi? Of course not... their susp was valved too stiff, with spring rates too high for the track. They bounced around the track, while Audi glided around the track, ultimately getting better tire wear and more traction. Lesson to be learned... a suspensions is supposed to ABSORB bumps, NOT to skip over them. Hug the road, NOT float over it.
20-Jan-2004, 06:41 PM
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I agree totally with Bruno, thats why in my analysis of boostzex's issue I kept with what he had....
as for my suggest of 800 pound springs that suggested rate is still less then what I commonly see being run at the autoX....
ok I just converted kg/mm to lbs/inch ./... yeah that800 guess of mine was off the wall ... rethinking it ... 500 would be a beter number...
but hell stay with what you have you'll be happy...
as for my suggest of 800 pound springs that suggested rate is still less then what I commonly see being run at the autoX....
ok I just converted kg/mm to lbs/inch ./... yeah that800 guess of mine was off the wall ... rethinking it ... 500 would be a beter number...
but hell stay with what you have you'll be happy...
20-Jan-2004, 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by bbarbulo
stiffer <=> not equal to <=> better
ever seen the 24 hours of LeMans... do you know why Panoz lost to Audi? Of course not... their susp was valved too stiff, with spring rates too high for the track. They bounced around the track, while Audi glided around the track, ultimately getting better tire wear and more traction. Lesson to be learned... a suspensions is supposed to ABSORB bumps, NOT to skip over them. Hug the road, NOT float over it.
stiffer <=> not equal to <=> better
ever seen the 24 hours of LeMans... do you know why Panoz lost to Audi? Of course not... their susp was valved too stiff, with spring rates too high for the track. They bounced around the track, while Audi glided around the track, ultimately getting better tire wear and more traction. Lesson to be learned... a suspensions is supposed to ABSORB bumps, NOT to skip over them. Hug the road, NOT float over it.
so your saying my springs are way to stiff? should I go to something softer...
Im just trying to work with what i got now, I was thinking about ditching the coilover sleeves for springs, but prioratys are changeing, Im coming across all these other things i need my money for likr a ES master kit, the swaybar setup, and of course the big 2, swap and paint...
so now im hesitateing on wheter to keep the coils i have or not, if the corner weighing doesnt cost an arm and a leg then ill just do it with my coils, and store my car from now on...
So opinions, please (this is a hard decision) keep my sleeves 350/450 with the tokicohp's or go to a spring setup with the tokicos ...? If i can work with what i got that would be ideal so i can spend money elsewhere
I tore down and cleaned my shock/coilover parts today they are all nice and shiney ready for spring.. man i cant wait for clean roads again
so let me know what u guys think, both of you know more about spring rates than I do so I appretiate your input
20-Jan-2004, 08:22 PM
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ok I think bruno was saying that in reference to Nova_dust's posted spring rates.....
there are 2 different ways to rate a spring metric and imperial.. kg/mm or lbs/inch respectively
anyways ITR springs for example are 300/300 your are not much stiffer.
stick with what you have but I recommend adjustable shocks....
there are 2 different ways to rate a spring metric and imperial.. kg/mm or lbs/inch respectively
anyways ITR springs for example are 300/300 your are not much stiffer.
stick with what you have but I recommend adjustable shocks....
20-Jan-2004, 08:29 PM
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ok thanks i misunderstood... adj shocks would sure be nice, but with all the other stuff i have planned i dont think ill see them this year
is there a way of testing a springs rate? like if the stickers fall off them? cuz i tore my **** down today and the hot water peeled the sticker off 3 of the springs, i have them organized, but just incase they get mixed up in some stupid mess like my g/f cleaning up or something..lol
is there a way of testing a springs rate? like if the stickers fall off them? cuz i tore my **** down today and the hot water peeled the sticker off 3 of the springs, i have them organized, but just incase they get mixed up in some stupid mess like my g/f cleaning up or something..lol
20-Jan-2004, 09:49 PM
#18
Jason's got it... use what you have... your setup (except the Tokico blue) is pretty common on auto-x cars. I know a guy running Skunk2 coilovers auto-x and he whoops ppl all over Ontario. gatherer, you should know him - white hatch, B16A, Corbeau seat, usually really ugly rims... great guy!
20-Jan-2004, 09:57 PM
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me thinks it's a dude that runs with a stuffed moose on his roof but the b16A throws it off .. then again who knows .. there are a few white hatches..... might be Pat but his hatch is black ... and I think he has a GSR
