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Octane? (Multiply choice allowed)
17-Nov-2002, 02:32 AM
#1
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Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Toronto
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Octane? (Multiple choice allowed)
I've always wondered about the numbers for the HP of JDM engines.
I know that in Japan, their low to mid grade gas is around 94.....just like our 94 Ultra here, but their "ULTRA" version is like 104.
Another thing I know is, that alot of people I used to hang out with at the track, when we used to go bracket racing, would buy the octane boost from Crappy Tire to help improve their engine HP. They would also, on occation, buy the race fuel that was available at the track.
When they used to Dyno their cars, they would do a run with the 94 Ulltra only......then would add the octane boost additive.,....drive the car for a while.....come back.......then do the test again. Most of the time, they had a marked inprovement in their HP and Torque.
Now talking this into cosideration, How much HP would those JDM engines really produce if they were to use the kind of gas we had here? I bet that it would be alot closer to the kind of numbers that the USDM engines have.
I know that the engines are built a little bit differently over there, but if you compare a "like" engine here to it's counterpart there, how much are we really gaining in a swap?
ie...........JDM D16.....compared to a USDM D16......(just an example)
I know that in Japan, their low to mid grade gas is around 94.....just like our 94 Ultra here, but their "ULTRA" version is like 104.
Another thing I know is, that alot of people I used to hang out with at the track, when we used to go bracket racing, would buy the octane boost from Crappy Tire to help improve their engine HP. They would also, on occation, buy the race fuel that was available at the track.
When they used to Dyno their cars, they would do a run with the 94 Ulltra only......then would add the octane boost additive.,....drive the car for a while.....come back.......then do the test again. Most of the time, they had a marked inprovement in their HP and Torque.
Now talking this into cosideration, How much HP would those JDM engines really produce if they were to use the kind of gas we had here? I bet that it would be alot closer to the kind of numbers that the USDM engines have.
I know that the engines are built a little bit differently over there, but if you compare a "like" engine here to it's counterpart there, how much are we really gaining in a swap?
ie...........JDM D16.....compared to a USDM D16......(just an example)
17-Nov-2002, 03:50 AM
#2
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Posts: n/a
Octane doesn't make power, it's purpose is to reduce the chances of pre-ignition.. when you increase engine compression or add turbo, sc, or nitro then you need to up the octane levels in order for the engine to perform up to its potential. Buying higher octane gas alone isn't going to get you anywhere. If you add higher octane gas and gain power, it only means you weren't using the proper octane requirement to begin with.
as for the USDM vs JDM issue, let's not forget most JDM engines come tuned with slightly higher compression and different igniton maps compared to their USDM couterparts. This is where the power difference comes from, and because the JDM engines have higher compression it requires higher octane to prevent pre-ignition. You can safely run a stock JDM B16A on ultra 94, and you can also safely run a stock USDM B16A on ultra 94.. run both on a dyno several times each, take the averages .. and 9 times out of 10 the JDM-spec will be on top... it has higher compression, higher compression = more power.
as for the USDM vs JDM issue, let's not forget most JDM engines come tuned with slightly higher compression and different igniton maps compared to their USDM couterparts. This is where the power difference comes from, and because the JDM engines have higher compression it requires higher octane to prevent pre-ignition. You can safely run a stock JDM B16A on ultra 94, and you can also safely run a stock USDM B16A on ultra 94.. run both on a dyno several times each, take the averages .. and 9 times out of 10 the JDM-spec will be on top... it has higher compression, higher compression = more power.
17-Nov-2002, 05:40 PM
#4
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Join Date: Jun 2002
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I agree with the above. Octane is just used to reduce pre-ignition/knock.
With that being said, a JDM car that runs fine on 94 or gas with ocatane boost will run okay. If the engine gets older (not just JDM) and there is wear, you will have more chance of pre-ignition/knock. Why? When an engine gets older, 'stuff' (deposits) gets built up on on the pistons. This can cause a slight increase in compression which can increase the chance of knocking. Most cars have 'knock' sensors to reduce the chance of knocking.
If your car is running on gasoline with lower octane than recommended or it is older, the knock sensor will reduce power to compensate. (and run poorly...isn't that right Alan?) Then, you should be running higher octane gasoline to reduce this. If your car is older, running higher octane gasoline isn't a real fix for this problem.
So, what happens when you run higher than recommended octane gasoline? It depends on the engine. If you have a 60 degree V-6 Honda engine ('98- Accord, '99- Odyssey, Pilot...Acuras are recommended to run high octane), you should get more power. About 10 hp. If you have a SOHC L-4 motor, there is no point in running anything higher than regular. If you are, you are just wasting money.
Mark
With that being said, a JDM car that runs fine on 94 or gas with ocatane boost will run okay. If the engine gets older (not just JDM) and there is wear, you will have more chance of pre-ignition/knock. Why? When an engine gets older, 'stuff' (deposits) gets built up on on the pistons. This can cause a slight increase in compression which can increase the chance of knocking. Most cars have 'knock' sensors to reduce the chance of knocking.
If your car is running on gasoline with lower octane than recommended or it is older, the knock sensor will reduce power to compensate. (and run poorly...isn't that right Alan?) Then, you should be running higher octane gasoline to reduce this. If your car is older, running higher octane gasoline isn't a real fix for this problem.
So, what happens when you run higher than recommended octane gasoline? It depends on the engine. If you have a 60 degree V-6 Honda engine ('98- Accord, '99- Odyssey, Pilot...Acuras are recommended to run high octane), you should get more power. About 10 hp. If you have a SOHC L-4 motor, there is no point in running anything higher than regular. If you are, you are just wasting money.
Mark
17-Nov-2002, 11:23 PM
#5
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Originally posted by MY SiR
If your car is running on gasoline with lower octane than recommended or it is older, the knock sensor will reduce power to compensate. (and run poorly...isn't that right Alan?) Then, you should be running higher octane gasoline to reduce this. If your car is older, running higher octane gasoline isn't a real fix for this problem.
If your car is running on gasoline with lower octane than recommended or it is older, the knock sensor will reduce power to compensate. (and run poorly...isn't that right Alan?) Then, you should be running higher octane gasoline to reduce this. If your car is older, running higher octane gasoline isn't a real fix for this problem.
I don't have the old d15 in the car anymore, That blew about a year ago. Duy was right when he suggested I switch to 94.
I noticed an improvement almost imediatly. I guess she(car) was just waiting for me to switch over to the better gas. She's much happier now, domed pistons and all.
19-Nov-2002, 01:19 PM
#7
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Location: Toronto, ON
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I usually fill up with 92 from Sunoco. I noticed my car felt a little sluggish lately (might just be psychological though), so I added a bottle of 104+ Octane boost as well when I filled up yesterday. There is definitely a noticable improvement in the power of the car and it does a nice job of cleaning out some of crap in the fuel system. 
19-Nov-2002, 08:45 PM
#9
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about the 104+ boost, I have used it before, more then once. I will never touch it again. The additive is not good for the engine, b/c it leaves alot of extra carbon on the spark plug that you can see. Can't remeber what else somebody was warning me about, but over all it is not good to use such additives. Depending on the engine, for mine, the crappier the fuel, the better it burns.
20-Nov-2002, 02:35 AM
#10
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Originally posted by EK7_DriftMania
everytime I use 94 my hp decrease, the cheaper ones are faster for me, wierd but true.
everytime I use 94 my hp decrease, the cheaper ones are faster for me, wierd but true.
31-Oct-2003, 05:54 PM
#12
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i have a JDM b18c....and i run nothing but 94...i have to....its higher compression than a usdm gsr....not much difference i think the numbers are usdm=10:1 JDM=10.6:1.....correct me if i am wrong...but the higher the better....110 at cayuga is nice
31-Oct-2003, 10:41 PM
#13
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I know I have posted saying how great octane is and how bad the octane booster is etc... but that was before I was a Volvo technician.
As I tech. one thing that we were tought was Octane and Cetane ratings.
OCTANE
- is a measure of the anti-knock quality of the fuel
- The ASTM (American Soceity for testing and Materials) standardized and classified gasoline to two methods: Motor Method and the research method.
- Pure HC (hydrocarbon) fuels are used as the means for grading the actual performane of a gasoline. A mixture of 90% iso-octane and 10% heptane would theoretically have identical anti-knock characteristics as a gasoline sold at the pumps as "90" octane.
- Iso-octane - "ideal" anti-knock charateristics
- Heptane - poor anti-knock
High octanes WILL burn cooler than lower octane, thus it's high anti-knock characteristics. However, it does have a higher calorific value
Calorific Value is defined as "heat energy" - the potential heat energy of a fuel is measured in Btu (British thermal Units), joules or calories.
There is also something that is equally import called VOLATILITY
defined as - the tendency of a liquid to vaporize. The volatility rating of a fuel is more important is SI (Spark Ignition) engines as it will determine the vapor -to-air ratrio at the time of ignition.
Pure gasoline with no vapour will not burn, YES... quote me on this when I say that you can light a match and throw it in the fuel and it will not burn, assuming perfect condition. It is the vapour that burns not the fuel (liquid form)
All engine, deisel or gas, all work on something call stoichiometric ratio, some people will call it air-to-fuel ratio. Prefect stoich is yet to be achieved, the most effiecient diese engine have tried to achieve 14.7:1 in mass not volume (10,000:1 - 14,000:1). Diesel will get around (14.5:1 - 15.2:1), gasoline is worst .
Now there is something called the four stroke cycle: intake, compression, expansion (combustion, power), and exhaust. In the compression stroke the fuel will have to be atomized, meaning liquid fuel have to be compress so it would turn into vapour, that's why you have a compression stroke, at around 3-10 degrees TDC (top dead center) is the beginning of ignition. If the fuel is combusted before the spark, then you will have knocking. Boyle's law states that the absolute pressure that a given quantity of gas at constant temperature exerts against the walls of a container is universally proportional to the volume occupied. Meaning the expansion of the gas during cumbustion will exert a force equal in all areas around the cylinder walls, excessive pressure will cause it to knock. Also known as detonation.
This is only the basics of fuels...
There's also something called Thermal effieciency as it is relative to rejected heat.
Cetane is for Diesel and rates 100% defferent, but closed to octane
In conclusion, higher octane good for Vtec and high compression etc.... low octane good for non-vtec etc......
I HIGHLY, Highly, highly recommand not messing with timing, only set to manufacturer's specs or piston replacement is something to be considering.
As I tech. one thing that we were tought was Octane and Cetane ratings.
OCTANE
- is a measure of the anti-knock quality of the fuel
- The ASTM (American Soceity for testing and Materials) standardized and classified gasoline to two methods: Motor Method and the research method.
- Pure HC (hydrocarbon) fuels are used as the means for grading the actual performane of a gasoline. A mixture of 90% iso-octane and 10% heptane would theoretically have identical anti-knock characteristics as a gasoline sold at the pumps as "90" octane.
- Iso-octane - "ideal" anti-knock charateristics
- Heptane - poor anti-knock
High octanes WILL burn cooler than lower octane, thus it's high anti-knock characteristics. However, it does have a higher calorific value
Calorific Value is defined as "heat energy" - the potential heat energy of a fuel is measured in Btu (British thermal Units), joules or calories.
There is also something that is equally import called VOLATILITY
defined as - the tendency of a liquid to vaporize. The volatility rating of a fuel is more important is SI (Spark Ignition) engines as it will determine the vapor -to-air ratrio at the time of ignition.
Pure gasoline with no vapour will not burn, YES... quote me on this when I say that you can light a match and throw it in the fuel and it will not burn, assuming perfect condition. It is the vapour that burns not the fuel (liquid form)
All engine, deisel or gas, all work on something call stoichiometric ratio, some people will call it air-to-fuel ratio. Prefect stoich is yet to be achieved, the most effiecient diese engine have tried to achieve 14.7:1 in mass not volume (10,000:1 - 14,000:1). Diesel will get around (14.5:1 - 15.2:1), gasoline is worst .
Now there is something called the four stroke cycle: intake, compression, expansion (combustion, power), and exhaust. In the compression stroke the fuel will have to be atomized, meaning liquid fuel have to be compress so it would turn into vapour, that's why you have a compression stroke, at around 3-10 degrees TDC (top dead center) is the beginning of ignition. If the fuel is combusted before the spark, then you will have knocking. Boyle's law states that the absolute pressure that a given quantity of gas at constant temperature exerts against the walls of a container is universally proportional to the volume occupied. Meaning the expansion of the gas during cumbustion will exert a force equal in all areas around the cylinder walls, excessive pressure will cause it to knock. Also known as detonation.
This is only the basics of fuels...
There's also something called Thermal effieciency as it is relative to rejected heat.
Cetane is for Diesel and rates 100% defferent, but closed to octane
In conclusion, higher octane good for Vtec and high compression etc.... low octane good for non-vtec etc......
I HIGHLY, Highly, highly recommand not messing with timing, only set to manufacturer's specs or piston replacement is something to be considering.
01-Nov-2003, 12:15 AM
#14
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Windsor / Toronto
Posts: 516
Originally posted by EL_Sport
it does a nice job of cleaning out some of crap in the fuel system.
it does a nice job of cleaning out some of crap in the fuel system.
- Jacob
02-Nov-2003, 02:50 PM
#18
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 957
Additives to clean stuff out???? you want to clean stuff out of your engine, like lubricating oil?
I think your missing the point here, Octane is "ANTI-KNOCK" ratings. Their not performance ratings
The WORST thing you can do to your car is clean the LUBs out.
Why??? ---> ever heard how bad metal to metal contacts are? Your engine with the wrong LUB will dead, totally seized up in the winter time. Adding additives like some (not all) octane boosters etc... will get mixed with LUB and contaminate the oil, and that is worst. As you know, HC(hydrocarbon) fuel does not all combust in the expansion stroke. Any fuel that goes into your oil will contaminate it.
I have seen one engine that veryone make fun of, because it was put on display. The guy ran 20W50 motor oil in his engine in the winter time. Man, the damage is pretty...it's a bad thing for him, but to a technician....chicching$$$$ big money, and it only took him 4 mins. Don't fool around with stuff you don't know the chemical make up of.
Always go with manufacturer's specs... Honda didn't just pay their engineers big bucks for nothing.
Alcohol does prevent fuel line freezing (Sunoco) brands. However, just because your gas line frozed up, don't mean you were using bad fuel. It could mean you have water form from condensation in your fuel tank and that water gets mixed with the fuel and thus, water freezes = gas line freeze. Not because of the fuel, government and petroleum companies do want to make money, so they do take into account for the winter fuels.
I think your missing the point here, Octane is "ANTI-KNOCK" ratings. Their not performance ratings
The WORST thing you can do to your car is clean the LUBs out.
Why??? ---> ever heard how bad metal to metal contacts are? Your engine with the wrong LUB will dead, totally seized up in the winter time. Adding additives like some (not all) octane boosters etc... will get mixed with LUB and contaminate the oil, and that is worst. As you know, HC(hydrocarbon) fuel does not all combust in the expansion stroke. Any fuel that goes into your oil will contaminate it.
I have seen one engine that veryone make fun of, because it was put on display. The guy ran 20W50 motor oil in his engine in the winter time. Man, the damage is pretty...it's a bad thing for him, but to a technician....chicching$$$$ big money, and it only took him 4 mins. Don't fool around with stuff you don't know the chemical make up of.
Always go with manufacturer's specs... Honda didn't just pay their engineers big bucks for nothing.
Alcohol does prevent fuel line freezing (Sunoco) brands. However, just because your gas line frozed up, don't mean you were using bad fuel. It could mean you have water form from condensation in your fuel tank and that water gets mixed with the fuel and thus, water freezes = gas line freeze. Not because of the fuel, government and petroleum companies do want to make money, so they do take into account for the winter fuels.
02-Nov-2003, 04:47 PM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 12,906
no i used to work at sunoco and they put something in that is along the lines of that fuel injector cleaner... only really mild but the reasoning is that if its used all hte time you wont need any high concentrations of it.... and the alcohol would aid in anti-freeze but they put something else in as well.... i worked there like 4 years ago so my memory has long be lost to all this
and i know that octane doesn't improve performance but the oil companies would lead the masses to believe it does... just look at the gas nozzle sunoco uses for its ultra 94...
and i know that octane doesn't improve performance but the oil companies would lead the masses to believe it does... just look at the gas nozzle sunoco uses for its ultra 94...
