imported_loudsubz

anyone used a compressed air cylinder, turned upside down and inject it into the intake?

If you spray it like that it comes out as a super cold 02. If you release it slow its liquid but if you press fast its like a misty 02 and was wondering if youd get a HP increase?

spracingsports

sure, but you most likely will need to inject more fuel too. it would be alot like hittin nozzz

imported_zc_hatch

hmm... use rightguard deodorant spray... works well in my potato gun hahah shoot a potato 1/2 a mile(like1.3km:P)

dingus8

you woudl need some way to add fuel yada yada...it woudl be liek a ghetto n20 idea but probobly woulnd't do much...if you had pure oxgen then maybe...my grandpa use to have a oxegen tank and when they filled it the fittign woudl frost up...so pure oxygen yes but I think you idea wouldn't work

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

you mean just compressed air, right? not O2... cuz O2 is explosive ****... you are trying to have a CONTROLLED explosion, not blow your block to peices.

problem with compressed air, and the reason NO ONE has done this NOT EVEN IN FORMULA 1... is cuz you show me a tank that can flow 400 cubic feet per minute.

Do you realize a big 502 V8 with a Holley Dominator 1050cfm carb can FILL UP A BLIMP in only a few minutes?? Yes, the carb flows enough air to fill up a blimp.

Granted our engines are like 1/4 of the size you get the picture... it would take a buttload of compressed air to be injected to get any gains, and the tank would be so heavy that it (the car) would prolly not even move.

So there is your answer... in the quest for power, there is two key things FLOW and PRESSURE. Turbo is still KING

there is your answer

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

oh and the fact that it's cold is irrelevant... the few degree drop in intake temps would again negate the weight of the tank.

Some ppl spray CO2 on intercoolers... I don't know why - it's an exercise in futility once that sucker is heat soaked.

PULOVR

But B, the cars in the Fast and Funny had it.

DirtyLude

Just to put numbers to what bbarbulo already said:

The volume of flow for a 2 litre engine is:
2 litres = 122.047 cubic inches
(6000rpm x 122.047ci) / (1728 x 2) = 211.887 cubic feet/min

So, normaly aspirated 2 litre engine breaths 211.887 cubic feet per minute at 6000 rpm. A decent sized steel tank will hold 100 cubic feet of air at 3500psi. It would all be used up in less than 1/2 a minute.

And ya, if you tried pure O2, you'd blow up real good.

imported_gatherer

what about a controlled addition of some O2....

as we know the air we breathe is 20% O2... what about a controlled release of some O2 to bump that up to say 30% O2.... ofcourse with an increase in fuel too.....

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

(6000rpm x 122.047ci) / (1728 x 2) = 211.887 cubic feet/min

I was too lazy to look for this formula

I just keep a rule of thumb handy... 1.5 * hp = appx. cfm

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

gatherer.... interesting thought - a metered injection of oxygen, like the injection of fuel. Seal off the engine from the atmosphere and just inject stochiometric parts oxygen and gasoline.

ohhhh... that can't work... still gotta fill up the cylinder with something.

you can't beat physics guys

gatherer, just letting out O2 doesn't make the % of O2 content in air higher... I don't think. It would have to displace another element that makes up air. Think about it... you'd either have to have a pre-mixed tank of your 30% O2 air... and inject that into the engine or it won't work. If you just release O2 into the atmosphere, it will get diluted.

Anyone know how a jet engine operates

Why are you guys trying to complicate things... we know we can make 400 hp if we wanted to from a SOHC D16Y7. What's the point of coming up with these ideas? Do you think that not one person in all of motorsports in 100 years of the automobile hadn't thought of your exact idea

We're too late for a revolution of the internal combustion engine... let's work on electric or hydrogen power. I'd love to get my hands on an Insight

imported_gatherer

ok I'm not saying close it off....

also I'm saying leaving the intake at atmospheric pressure in other words not trying to pressurize the intake...

here's how it would work ... there would be a controlled release of O2 into the intake pipe kind of like a NOS system. this release of gas would be pure O2 and therefore since more O2 is being added the percentage of O2 in the air increases...

here's an example:

say you have 10 parts of air in the intake tube. this contains 20% O2

say you shoot 1 part of O2 into that thats at 100% O2 well this part displaces 1 of the 10 parts of air

so now in the intake tube you have 9 parts air at 20% O2 and 1 part O2 at 100% O2

ok so this is gas and as a gas it mixes so when you mix them together using math and ratios and **** you get air with 28% O2

theres just a simple example.... so how much flow would you need .... hmmm you would need to flow 21.1887 CFM @atmospheric pressure for this to work....

I wonder what the flow would have to be at 90 PSI since after itenters the intake pipe it can expand and cool the intake charge as well...

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

Ok, but what happened to the 8% of "other" gas that used to be in the air... where did IT go. You say assume air is 20% O2, and now it's 28% O2... so it's an 8% increase in O2, which means there is now 8% of "other" gas that used to be in the same intake tube... where did it go??

imported_gatherer

actually it's 10% of the air that was displaced

since the intake was 10 parts and we added 1 part O2...

anyways to show where the other 2% came from it was O2 that got displaced with the air...

well either the intake would be come slightly pressurized ... since gas is compressable you can fit 11 parts of a gas @ atmospheric pressure inside a container that can only hold 10 parts or a gas at atmospheric pressure. what happens is the gas when 11 parts are put into a 10 part sized box, compress and the pressure rises above atmospheric pressure.

of course this also leads to reversion and air going out the in since gas likes to expand....but the mixture would still have a richer O2 content.

actually if we base this on my previous math the O2 content of the intake charge would be 28.18% of the air.

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

you can only compress gas when it's in a sealed space, which the intake is not... also, the quantity of O2 requ'd would be significant since 20 cu ft. would only last a minute, and compressed O2 is also expensive, plus it would be pretty heavy.

one thing we thought about a few years back on purehonda.com was a leaf blower... it uses gasoline, so you can run it right off the tank of the car, and it can flow about 380 cfm. Still, a turbo can't be beat!

Turbo is still the most economical (well, efficient) way of increasing hp for any engine.

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

You know, when the whole lightweight wheel thing started, one kid asked why tires don't get filled with helium instead of air.

I know... but what do you think?

imported_gatherer

well it doesn't work because Helium still has wieght to it ... I'd suggest Hydrogen has a lower atomic wieght

imported_gatherer

yes I agree turbo is the best method... but this is an interesting Idea... and yes the tank would more then offset the HP gains.....

the leaf blower would be good ... but isn't the blower of the device also the exhaust you wouldn't want to send dirty air into the engine

imported_gatherer

also with the closed box thing yes your right so reversion out the intake pipe would be an issue....

and with that said if air starts to flow the wrong way you'd get a condition where by air is flowing out the intake causing the mixture going into the engine to become very O2 rich .... since your filling in the space with 100% O2....

how much CFM do NOS systems flow? they richen the Oxygen to everything else ratio as well .....

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

N2O only has one oxygen atom! That way the chemical reaction isn't as violent as with O2. The N2O breaks up under the heat and it frees up an extra oxygen atom which is free to roam about and combust. If there isn't enough fuel, the bastard will react with the aluminium that is you piston I'll continue later.