Ls Vtec
16-Mar-2007, 03:36 PM
#41
Originally posted by SaYjAiBaO
.....
that's a k swap right there already. 7-8k is rediculous for a n/a b swap.
..... that's a k swap right there already. 7-8k is rediculous for a n/a b swap.
that's $20K in susp, chassis, brakes, wheels, tires, turbo, seats, gauges, lighting and accessories (like armrest, MDX mirror, etc.)
16-Mar-2007, 04:11 PM
#42
Originally posted by bbarbulo
all good baby, we just have different approaches to making power. that's why there isn't a single best answer to the question "what swap should I get, or should I go turbo"
all good baby, we just have different approaches to making power. that's why there isn't a single best answer to the question "what swap should I get, or should I go turbo"
Originally posted by bbarbulo
people underestimate how quickly money is spent on a well built car. I have around $20,000 in mods alone, but if you asked me to account for every $100 bux spent I couldn't do it. I have no body work, no roll cage, no internal engine work, no stereo/subs/etc.
people underestimate how quickly money is spent on a well built car. I have around $20,000 in mods alone, but if you asked me to account for every $100 bux spent I couldn't do it. I have no body work, no roll cage, no internal engine work, no stereo/subs/etc.
I'm in the same boat, minus the turbo and a little bit on the total amount spent.
That $20,000 in mods disappears a lot quicker if you're paying somoene to do all of the labour.
When people talk about building engines like its easy, not realizing to actually change the rod bolts how much extra work it is, or when just changing the rings actually turns out to be new oversized pistons and rings, bore/hone, new bearings (at least rods bearings), then pay someone to pull the engine out, disassemble the engine, get the machine work done, assemble the engine and put it back in the car, just to change rod bolts or piston rings. Things of that nature add up quick, you'll spend $2000 just to replace the rings, b/c while you're at it, you might as well do this, and do that and the $$$ adds up fast especially at the machine shop (not including assembly).
Like you said B, different strokes for different folks.
16-Mar-2007, 04:45 PM
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: At your moms
Posts: 2,633
Originally posted by zeeman
That $20,000 in mods disappears a lot quicker if you're paying somoene to do all of the labour.
When people talk about building engines like its easy, not realizing to actually change the rod bolts how much extra work it is, or when just changing the rings actually turns out to be new oversized pistons and rings, bore/hone, new bearings (at least rods bearings), then pay someone to pull the engine out, disassemble the engine, get the machine work done, assemble the engine and put it back in the car, just to change rod bolts or piston rings. Things of that nature add up quick, you'll spend $2000 just to replace the rings, b/c while you're at it, you might as well do this, and do that and the $$$ adds up fast especially at the machine shop (not including assembly).
That $20,000 in mods disappears a lot quicker if you're paying somoene to do all of the labour.
When people talk about building engines like its easy, not realizing to actually change the rod bolts how much extra work it is, or when just changing the rings actually turns out to be new oversized pistons and rings, bore/hone, new bearings (at least rods bearings), then pay someone to pull the engine out, disassemble the engine, get the machine work done, assemble the engine and put it back in the car, just to change rod bolts or piston rings. Things of that nature add up quick, you'll spend $2000 just to replace the rings, b/c while you're at it, you might as well do this, and do that and the $$$ adds up fast especially at the machine shop (not including assembly).
16-Mar-2007, 06:01 PM
#46
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Posts: 1,961
Originally posted by bbarbulo
people underestimate how quickly money is spent on a well built car. I have around $20,000 in mods alone, but if you asked me to account for every $100 bux spent I couldn't do it. I have no body work, no roll cage, no internal engine work, no stereo/subs/etc.
that's $20K in susp, chassis, brakes, wheels, tires, turbo, seats, gauges, lighting and accessories (like armrest, MDX mirror, etc.)
people underestimate how quickly money is spent on a well built car. I have around $20,000 in mods alone, but if you asked me to account for every $100 bux spent I couldn't do it. I have no body work, no roll cage, no internal engine work, no stereo/subs/etc.
that's $20K in susp, chassis, brakes, wheels, tires, turbo, seats, gauges, lighting and accessories (like armrest, MDX mirror, etc.)
16-Mar-2007, 09:00 PM
#50
450 hp is possible on a sleeved block from benson or whatever. I wouldn't spend the money on a dart block unless you race professionally and plan to make 600+ hp. also, 450 hp is a little excessive anyways... like what do you plan to do in order to get that much power down to the pavement in a 2500 lb FWD car?
17-Mar-2007, 11:05 AM
#51
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 227
Perhaps the biggest bang for the buck is a Frankenstein Engine. A Frank is a bunch of swaps between different blocks and heads within the B engine family to make some non-factory combinations that work exceedingly well.
The most popular Frank swap is adding a VTEC B16A or B18C head from a del Sol, a Civic Si or an Integra GS-R to an LS non-VTEC Integra B18B or even, to make a really big engine, the mini-SUV CRV B20B or B20Z bottom end. The common, easy to find LS Integra B18A and B18B engines have a bore and stroke of 81x89mm, which gives you 1834cc. Powerful but expensive in salvage yards, the VTEC- enhanced B18C has a 81x87.2 bore and stroke, which gives you 1797cc of displacement. The smaller but powerful B16A has a bore and stroke of 81x77.4mm for a displacement of 1595cc. By putting the VTEC head on the LS bottom end, you pick up 35cc over the B18C and a whopping 239cc more torque-producing displacement over the B16A. The added displacement and stroke give the LS Frank engine a nice torque
advantage.
YEAR VTEC SOLENOID VTEC PRESSURE SWITCH KNOCK SENSOR
1988-91 A-8 B-5 B-19
1992-95 A-4 D-6 D-3
1996-00 A-8 C-15 D-6, 9-00 SI C-3
Due to the B engine's excellent interchangeability, you can put a B16A head, a B18C head or even the expensive and rare B18C5 head from an Integra Type R on the LS bottom end to make a larger displacement, longer stroke, potent torque monster B18. It has the best of both worlds, the torque of the B18B or B18A with the screaming VTEC power of the B18C. This head swap adds about 40 hp to your typical LS engine with naturally aspirated wheel hp figures in the 170-190 hp range and torque in the 120- 145 lb.-ft. zone easy to obtain on 91 octane pump gas. The engine will retain a compression ratio of approximately 10:1 with this combination of heads.
To add a VTEC cylinder head to an LS bottom end, you must tap and plug the VTEC oil supply hole found on the bottom left side of the head. A 1/8-inch pipe plug will work well for this. Next you must run an oil supply line from a T-fitting placed on the oil pressure sending unit boss on the block to the VTEC oil galley plug found on the intake side of the head near the distributor. To make the oil line, you need a piece of -4 braided steel line about 20-inch long, with two female A/N fittings attached (an industrial hydraulics shop can make this for you), a 3/8-inch NPT to -4A/N adapter for the head, a 1/8-inch NPT to -4 A/N adapter and a 1/8-inch NPT T-fitting with two female sides and one male side.
You must also open up the dowel pin holes on the VTEC cylinder head to 9/16-inch as the LS block has larger dowel pins to locate the head on the block. This is a pretty simple operation that can be preformed on a drill press. If you don't feel like doing this, the operation can be easily handled by any competent machine shop.
An LS head gasket is used with the appropriate VTEC ECU for your year and chassis of vehicle. A jumper wire running from the appropriate pin in the ECU to the VTEC control solenoid completes the VTEC activation. The proper VTEC ECU is the ECU for the VTEC model of your vehicle. Below is a chart with the pin locations where the wires to control the VTEC solenoid connect.
It is also critical to hook up the knock sensor or the VTEC function will not work. The engine's ECU looks for the knock sensor signal in order to activate VTEC. The B18A and B18B block has no provision for a knock sensor. In this case, or if you don't want to run a knock sensor, you can do several things. You can have a knock sensor not attached but grounded to the chassis and connected to your ECU, or Hasport has ECUs that are reprogrammed to allow VTEC operation with no knock sensor input.
Another very potent Frankenstein combination is using the B20 bottom end from the CRV mini sport utility, with a VTEC cylinder head. The B20 bottom ends that are desirable are the B20B ('97-'98 CRV) and the B20Z ('99-'01 CRV). With a big bore of 84mm and a stroke of 89mm with a whopping displacement of 1973cc, a B20 Frank has the potential to be the meanest of all the Frank engines.
Of the two B20 engines the B20Z has more compression at 10.2:1 over the B20B's lower 8.8:1. This is because the B20Z has a flatter top piston when compared with the to the B20B's deeper dish. The lower compression B20B is more desirable for a bolt on supercharger or turbocharger kit because of this. If you wanted to run high compression with a B20B/Z there are no factory pistons that can do this, but any number of quality custom forged piston makers, such as JE, Aires or Wiseco can make a piston for the B20B/Z. This piston should be made with a dome volume to give about compression ratios from 11:1 for the street to 13:1 for race gas. With 11:1 pistons and a VTEC head mildly worked over, it can be possible to have a very impressive engine for very little money.
The procedure to swap a VTEC head on the B20B is the same as the LS swap with the exception of using the B20 head gasket. A naturally aspirated, mild B20B can easily get more than 200 hp on pump gas with more than 150 lb.-ft. of stump pulling torque.
As a warning, when the VTEC head is installed, there's not a whole lot of piston-to-valve clearance as VTEC heads have larger 33mm intake valves vs. the B20 engine's 31mm valves. If you are dyno tuning, contact will occur between the piston and valves if the cam is advanced much more than 4 degrees, so be careful. In fact this is so close it's not advisable to advance the intake cam at all.
If running larger lift and duration aftermarket cams in your B20/VTEC Frank, or if the head has been modified for higher compression by milling, the piston's valve pockets should be modified and the valve-to-piston clearance confirmed before the head is final assembled to the block. Carefully grinding the piston's valve reliefs with a die grinder with carbide burrs and polishing the result with cartridge rolls can obtain additional clearance. A minimum clearance of 0.045-inch on the intake valves and 0.055-inch on the exhaust valves is advisable
The most popular Frank swap is adding a VTEC B16A or B18C head from a del Sol, a Civic Si or an Integra GS-R to an LS non-VTEC Integra B18B or even, to make a really big engine, the mini-SUV CRV B20B or B20Z bottom end. The common, easy to find LS Integra B18A and B18B engines have a bore and stroke of 81x89mm, which gives you 1834cc. Powerful but expensive in salvage yards, the VTEC- enhanced B18C has a 81x87.2 bore and stroke, which gives you 1797cc of displacement. The smaller but powerful B16A has a bore and stroke of 81x77.4mm for a displacement of 1595cc. By putting the VTEC head on the LS bottom end, you pick up 35cc over the B18C and a whopping 239cc more torque-producing displacement over the B16A. The added displacement and stroke give the LS Frank engine a nice torque
advantage.
YEAR VTEC SOLENOID VTEC PRESSURE SWITCH KNOCK SENSOR
1988-91 A-8 B-5 B-19
1992-95 A-4 D-6 D-3
1996-00 A-8 C-15 D-6, 9-00 SI C-3
Due to the B engine's excellent interchangeability, you can put a B16A head, a B18C head or even the expensive and rare B18C5 head from an Integra Type R on the LS bottom end to make a larger displacement, longer stroke, potent torque monster B18. It has the best of both worlds, the torque of the B18B or B18A with the screaming VTEC power of the B18C. This head swap adds about 40 hp to your typical LS engine with naturally aspirated wheel hp figures in the 170-190 hp range and torque in the 120- 145 lb.-ft. zone easy to obtain on 91 octane pump gas. The engine will retain a compression ratio of approximately 10:1 with this combination of heads.
To add a VTEC cylinder head to an LS bottom end, you must tap and plug the VTEC oil supply hole found on the bottom left side of the head. A 1/8-inch pipe plug will work well for this. Next you must run an oil supply line from a T-fitting placed on the oil pressure sending unit boss on the block to the VTEC oil galley plug found on the intake side of the head near the distributor. To make the oil line, you need a piece of -4 braided steel line about 20-inch long, with two female A/N fittings attached (an industrial hydraulics shop can make this for you), a 3/8-inch NPT to -4A/N adapter for the head, a 1/8-inch NPT to -4 A/N adapter and a 1/8-inch NPT T-fitting with two female sides and one male side.
You must also open up the dowel pin holes on the VTEC cylinder head to 9/16-inch as the LS block has larger dowel pins to locate the head on the block. This is a pretty simple operation that can be preformed on a drill press. If you don't feel like doing this, the operation can be easily handled by any competent machine shop.
An LS head gasket is used with the appropriate VTEC ECU for your year and chassis of vehicle. A jumper wire running from the appropriate pin in the ECU to the VTEC control solenoid completes the VTEC activation. The proper VTEC ECU is the ECU for the VTEC model of your vehicle. Below is a chart with the pin locations where the wires to control the VTEC solenoid connect.
It is also critical to hook up the knock sensor or the VTEC function will not work. The engine's ECU looks for the knock sensor signal in order to activate VTEC. The B18A and B18B block has no provision for a knock sensor. In this case, or if you don't want to run a knock sensor, you can do several things. You can have a knock sensor not attached but grounded to the chassis and connected to your ECU, or Hasport has ECUs that are reprogrammed to allow VTEC operation with no knock sensor input.
Another very potent Frankenstein combination is using the B20 bottom end from the CRV mini sport utility, with a VTEC cylinder head. The B20 bottom ends that are desirable are the B20B ('97-'98 CRV) and the B20Z ('99-'01 CRV). With a big bore of 84mm and a stroke of 89mm with a whopping displacement of 1973cc, a B20 Frank has the potential to be the meanest of all the Frank engines.
Of the two B20 engines the B20Z has more compression at 10.2:1 over the B20B's lower 8.8:1. This is because the B20Z has a flatter top piston when compared with the to the B20B's deeper dish. The lower compression B20B is more desirable for a bolt on supercharger or turbocharger kit because of this. If you wanted to run high compression with a B20B/Z there are no factory pistons that can do this, but any number of quality custom forged piston makers, such as JE, Aires or Wiseco can make a piston for the B20B/Z. This piston should be made with a dome volume to give about compression ratios from 11:1 for the street to 13:1 for race gas. With 11:1 pistons and a VTEC head mildly worked over, it can be possible to have a very impressive engine for very little money.
The procedure to swap a VTEC head on the B20B is the same as the LS swap with the exception of using the B20 head gasket. A naturally aspirated, mild B20B can easily get more than 200 hp on pump gas with more than 150 lb.-ft. of stump pulling torque.
As a warning, when the VTEC head is installed, there's not a whole lot of piston-to-valve clearance as VTEC heads have larger 33mm intake valves vs. the B20 engine's 31mm valves. If you are dyno tuning, contact will occur between the piston and valves if the cam is advanced much more than 4 degrees, so be careful. In fact this is so close it's not advisable to advance the intake cam at all.
If running larger lift and duration aftermarket cams in your B20/VTEC Frank, or if the head has been modified for higher compression by milling, the piston's valve pockets should be modified and the valve-to-piston clearance confirmed before the head is final assembled to the block. Carefully grinding the piston's valve reliefs with a die grinder with carbide burrs and polishing the result with cartridge rolls can obtain additional clearance. A minimum clearance of 0.045-inch on the intake valves and 0.055-inch on the exhaust valves is advisable
17-Mar-2007, 11:58 AM
#54
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 537
Originally posted by SaYjAiBaO
i was talking about the price of a swap alone. for 7-8gs i rather swap a k and be happy with it for quite some time.
i was talking about the price of a swap alone. for 7-8gs i rather swap a k and be happy with it for quite some time.
17-Mar-2007, 01:03 PM
#55
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Posts: 1,961
yeah and how long will your lsvtec last at mosport? just because you make good power for cheaper doesn't mean it's better. building a honda isn't all about going fast in a straight line. they weren't even meant for that! i'm not a strip guy so maybe that's why i'm not crazy about these frankenstein swaps.
17-Mar-2007, 01:06 PM
#56
and the K will last longer than a B?...maybe so but you'll spend 5 times the money.
M_power can actually speak here b/c he's talking from experience from building engines and doing this stuff.
You have to decide what you're building the car for, 1320, auto cross, the street. Then you build accordgly.
M_power can actually speak here b/c he's talking from experience from building engines and doing this stuff.
You have to decide what you're building the car for, 1320, auto cross, the street. Then you build accordgly.
17-Mar-2007, 02:23 PM
#59
lol....ya, you can't do that, you can't compare apples to oranges.
If you're talking about spending $7-8000 on a K-swap, then you've gotta be able to spend $7-8000 on your ls/b20vtec or any b-series swap for that matter. And i'm sorry, with 8K to spend on a b-series you'll be making way more power (that will last since its a brand new engine) than a $8000 k-swap with bolt-ons....but you can't compare apples to oranges...we all know k-series is the future, and has features that puts it above the b-series hands down (adjustable cam angle comes to mind). And hopefully one day (if i become rich and/or stupid) i can be fortunate enough to build a crazy k-series and tune it with k-pro so i can be more knowledgable about the K's.
But until then, i still and will always, loves me a b20vtak!!!
If you're talking about spending $7-8000 on a K-swap, then you've gotta be able to spend $7-8000 on your ls/b20vtec or any b-series swap for that matter. And i'm sorry, with 8K to spend on a b-series you'll be making way more power (that will last since its a brand new engine) than a $8000 k-swap with bolt-ons....but you can't compare apples to oranges...we all know k-series is the future, and has features that puts it above the b-series hands down (adjustable cam angle comes to mind). And hopefully one day (if i become rich and/or stupid) i can be fortunate enough to build a crazy k-series and tune it with k-pro so i can be more knowledgable about the K's.
But until then, i still and will always, loves me a b20vtak!!!
