super charger
27-Dec-2009, 10:54 PM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 13
super charger
looking to super charger a b18c1 block with a b16 head i want the car to be reliable dont mind droping the coin but looking maybe for a couple out links on a couple differnt options n e suggestions
28-Dec-2009, 12:18 AM
#2
Inactive
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,641
Jackson makes good superchargers.
MossPerformance.com High Performance Parts & Accessories
MossPerformance.com High Performance Parts & Accessories
28-Dec-2009, 10:40 AM
#4
Jackson Racing Supercharger kits are CRAP on hondas.
Seriously, don't waste your money. The ONLY way I'd supercharge my honda is using a Vortec kit with an intercooler. The JRSC kits don't have an aftercooler or any way of cooling down the intake charge. This is very bad for many reasons. The first one being that hot air is less dense and will make less power. So during a pull with a JRSC you'll notice the IATs (intake air temps) raising almost as fast as the RPMs increase. So this means, one pull the car will feel quick, but once its hot the next pull isn't gunna feel as good. Hot air is also more likely to detonate, so being a tuner, knowing this, I'd have to pull timing out as the IAT's increase just to keep things safe, essentially less timing equals less power. And of course there is the on-going belt slipping/breaking issues common to JRSC'd cars or any supercharged car for that matter. Also, if you want to upgrade supercharged cars are harder to do so. To run more boost you need different pulleys, its not just a matter of putting on a boost controller and adjusting it for more boost.
From my experiences with supercharged hondas, i'd say if you really wanna boost your car, go turbo. Its about the same inital cost with better performance results. Its no less reliable than a supercharged car (I daily drive a turbo b16 year round) and no harder to maintain.
For a supercharger to really work well the engine has to already produce a good amount of torque, something our small displacement hondas don't do. Being that the supercharger is belt driven if your engine doesn't make a whole lot of torque to begin with the supercharger isn't going to be very efficient. The parasitic loss from being belt driven kills what little torque hondas make to begin with, so the results are less than desireable.
Seriously, don't waste your money. The ONLY way I'd supercharge my honda is using a Vortec kit with an intercooler. The JRSC kits don't have an aftercooler or any way of cooling down the intake charge. This is very bad for many reasons. The first one being that hot air is less dense and will make less power. So during a pull with a JRSC you'll notice the IATs (intake air temps) raising almost as fast as the RPMs increase. So this means, one pull the car will feel quick, but once its hot the next pull isn't gunna feel as good. Hot air is also more likely to detonate, so being a tuner, knowing this, I'd have to pull timing out as the IAT's increase just to keep things safe, essentially less timing equals less power. And of course there is the on-going belt slipping/breaking issues common to JRSC'd cars or any supercharged car for that matter. Also, if you want to upgrade supercharged cars are harder to do so. To run more boost you need different pulleys, its not just a matter of putting on a boost controller and adjusting it for more boost.
From my experiences with supercharged hondas, i'd say if you really wanna boost your car, go turbo. Its about the same inital cost with better performance results. Its no less reliable than a supercharged car (I daily drive a turbo b16 year round) and no harder to maintain.
For a supercharger to really work well the engine has to already produce a good amount of torque, something our small displacement hondas don't do. Being that the supercharger is belt driven if your engine doesn't make a whole lot of torque to begin with the supercharger isn't going to be very efficient. The parasitic loss from being belt driven kills what little torque hondas make to begin with, so the results are less than desireable.
28-Dec-2009, 07:52 PM
#6
Inactive
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,641
A lot of good info is in here.
http://www.torontocivics.com/tccv5forums/t148763/
http://www.torontocivics.com/tccv5forums/t148763/
21-Feb-2010, 12:29 AM
#8
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 58
Jackson Racing Supercharger kits are CRAP on hondas.
Seriously, don't waste your money. The ONLY way I'd supercharge my honda is using a Vortec kit with an intercooler. The JRSC kits don't have an aftercooler or any way of cooling down the intake charge. This is very bad for many reasons. The first one being that hot air is less dense and will make less power. So during a pull with a JRSC you'll notice the IATs (intake air temps) raising almost as fast as the RPMs increase. So this means, one pull the car will feel quick, but once its hot the next pull isn't gunna feel as good. Hot air is also more likely to detonate, so being a tuner, knowing this, I'd have to pull timing out as the IAT's increase just to keep things safe, essentially less timing equals less power. And of course there is the on-going belt slipping/breaking issues common to JRSC'd cars or any supercharged car for that matter. Also, if you want to upgrade supercharged cars are harder to do so. To run more boost you need different pulleys, its not just a matter of putting on a boost controller and adjusting it for more boost.
From my experiences with supercharged hondas, i'd say if you really wanna boost your car, go turbo. Its about the same inital cost with better performance results. Its no less reliable than a supercharged car (I daily drive a turbo b16 year round) and no harder to maintain.
For a supercharger to really work well the engine has to already produce a good amount of torque, something our small displacement hondas don't do. Being that the supercharger is belt driven if your engine doesn't make a whole lot of torque to begin with the supercharger isn't going to be very efficient. The parasitic loss from being belt driven kills what little torque hondas make to begin with, so the results are less than desireable.
Seriously, don't waste your money. The ONLY way I'd supercharge my honda is using a Vortec kit with an intercooler. The JRSC kits don't have an aftercooler or any way of cooling down the intake charge. This is very bad for many reasons. The first one being that hot air is less dense and will make less power. So during a pull with a JRSC you'll notice the IATs (intake air temps) raising almost as fast as the RPMs increase. So this means, one pull the car will feel quick, but once its hot the next pull isn't gunna feel as good. Hot air is also more likely to detonate, so being a tuner, knowing this, I'd have to pull timing out as the IAT's increase just to keep things safe, essentially less timing equals less power. And of course there is the on-going belt slipping/breaking issues common to JRSC'd cars or any supercharged car for that matter. Also, if you want to upgrade supercharged cars are harder to do so. To run more boost you need different pulleys, its not just a matter of putting on a boost controller and adjusting it for more boost.
From my experiences with supercharged hondas, i'd say if you really wanna boost your car, go turbo. Its about the same inital cost with better performance results. Its no less reliable than a supercharged car (I daily drive a turbo b16 year round) and no harder to maintain.
For a supercharger to really work well the engine has to already produce a good amount of torque, something our small displacement hondas don't do. Being that the supercharger is belt driven if your engine doesn't make a whole lot of torque to begin with the supercharger isn't going to be very efficient. The parasitic loss from being belt driven kills what little torque hondas make to begin with, so the results are less than desireable.
my friend ran a JRSC on his STOCK R and made 266whp 196wtq. and he only spent 1500$ on the full supercharger kit including injectors/pulley/alternator w/ pulley. he ran it for 2 years and never had any belt breaking/slipping times.
21-Feb-2010, 05:06 PM
#9
Super charging is for those that don't have the coin for a turbo, IMO. I was reading an article by Skunk2, and why with their K series engine they went Supercharged. Bottom line being they wanted controlled power, and didn't want the lag at the apex of a turn. Said the turbos can produce greater numbers, but not at the moments they want it.
Sure they could rip up a straight away, but when accelerating out of a turn it would be squirly with that sudden power band. Unlike the Super chargers.
As for the front mount inter cooler... did we all forget about the Arial Atom with it's 300hp B16B?
I drove a SiR with a Jackson ville Supercharger (trent valley Honda's Momo Car) it did nothing for me. There could be many reasons why. (tune, boost #, supercharger size, etc.)
-B
Sure they could rip up a straight away, but when accelerating out of a turn it would be squirly with that sudden power band. Unlike the Super chargers.
As for the front mount inter cooler... did we all forget about the Arial Atom with it's 300hp B16B?
I drove a SiR with a Jackson ville Supercharger (trent valley Honda's Momo Car) it did nothing for me. There could be many reasons why. (tune, boost #, supercharger size, etc.)
-B
21-Feb-2010, 06:01 PM
#10
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 58
Super charging is for those that don't have the coin for a turbo, IMO. I was reading an article by Skunk2, and why with their K series engine they went Supercharged. Bottom line being they wanted controlled power, and didn't want the lag at the apex of a turn. Said the turbos can produce greater numbers, but not at the moments they want it.
Sure they could rip up a straight away, but when accelerating out of a turn it would be squirly with that sudden power band. Unlike the Super chargers.
As for the front mount inter cooler... did we all forget about the Arial Atom with it's 300hp B16B?
I drove a SiR with a Jackson ville Supercharger (trent valley Honda's Momo Car) it did nothing for me. There could be many reasons why. (tune, boost #, supercharger size, etc.)
-B
Sure they could rip up a straight away, but when accelerating out of a turn it would be squirly with that sudden power band. Unlike the Super chargers.
As for the front mount inter cooler... did we all forget about the Arial Atom with it's 300hp B16B?
I drove a SiR with a Jackson ville Supercharger (trent valley Honda's Momo Car) it did nothing for me. There could be many reasons why. (tune, boost #, supercharger size, etc.)
-B
i know it's your opinion and all... but let's get cereal. cheaper than turbo?...
MossPerformance.com High Performance Parts & Accessories
show me where you see that super chargers are cheap, and i'll agree that it's ''cheaper.''
21-Feb-2010, 07:12 PM
#11
S2000 Vortech supercharger kit on eBay.ca (item 110496845396 end time 21-Feb-10 22:35:02 EST)
Vortec kit.
For my next turbo for my STi I'm looking at 1600$ FP Green HTA
Then a front mount intercooler, injectors, header, piping, ect.
That Jacksonville kit comes with a tuned computer, injectors, pulleys, and the super charger!
I only wish I could pay $3600 usd for a complete turbo kit with a well known brand.
My AEM computer on my rex, alone was $1200 used!
Vortec kit.
For my next turbo for my STi I'm looking at 1600$ FP Green HTA
Then a front mount intercooler, injectors, header, piping, ect.
That Jacksonville kit comes with a tuned computer, injectors, pulleys, and the super charger!
I only wish I could pay $3600 usd for a complete turbo kit with a well known brand.
My AEM computer on my rex, alone was $1200 used!
Last edited by F8i; 21-Feb-2010 at 08:21 PM. Reason: jackass
22-Feb-2010, 04:37 PM
#12
If I could find any S/C for my SOHC I'd be going that route instead of the turbo build I'm doing, I'm not building a track car though I just wanna make decent numbers in a daily. Then again I currently drive a car with +575k on the original d16z6 so really even a fresh motor would be a noticeable gain for me. The sk2 rotorex setup looks good but they wont make a kit for D/B series because those engines rotate the wrong way for the rotorex charger. They told me that it'd be too much in R&D to justify it since those motors are not as popular anymore. I guess adding a pulley to the kit or making the impeller shaft come out the other side of the housing would have broken the bank.
22-Feb-2010, 10:53 PM
#13
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 58
S2000 Vortech supercharger kit on eBay.ca (item 110496845396 end time 21-Feb-10 22:35:02 EST)
Vortec kit.
For my next turbo for my STi I'm looking at 1600$ FP Green HTA
Then a front mount intercooler, injectors, header, piping, ect.
That Jacksonville kit comes with a tuned computer, injectors, pulleys, and the super charger!
I only wish I could pay $3600 usd for a complete turbo kit with a well known brand.
My AEM computer on my rex, alone was $1200 used!
Vortec kit.
For my next turbo for my STi I'm looking at 1600$ FP Green HTA
Then a front mount intercooler, injectors, header, piping, ect.
That Jacksonville kit comes with a tuned computer, injectors, pulleys, and the super charger!
I only wish I could pay $3600 usd for a complete turbo kit with a well known brand.
My AEM computer on my rex, alone was $1200 used!
But again, you're comparing an STI TURBO to a b18c1 S/C.
BIG difference.
22-Feb-2010, 11:53 PM
#14
most 4 cylinder turbos are a big difference from 4 cylinder supercharged.
I'll use the ITR as an example.
Most JRSC'd ITR's locally that i've seen/done are around 230-260whp / 160-190wtq @ 6-9psi.
Most turbocharged ITR's locally that i've seen/done are around 280-320whp / 200-230wtq @ 6-9psi.
You can pick a smaller turbo (gt28rs, t3/t4 50 trim) that will spool quick and provide good midrange power for a "circuit" car or a fun street car. Or a medium sized turbo like a gt30/gt35 or SC50/SC61 that will make more top end power where our small displacement engines typically shine.
I'll use the ITR as an example.
Most JRSC'd ITR's locally that i've seen/done are around 230-260whp / 160-190wtq @ 6-9psi.
Most turbocharged ITR's locally that i've seen/done are around 280-320whp / 200-230wtq @ 6-9psi.
You can pick a smaller turbo (gt28rs, t3/t4 50 trim) that will spool quick and provide good midrange power for a "circuit" car or a fun street car. Or a medium sized turbo like a gt30/gt35 or SC50/SC61 that will make more top end power where our small displacement engines typically shine.
23-Feb-2010, 10:23 AM
#15
Inactive
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Where my car is.
Posts: 5,460
^^Another example, the 87 MR2 I've been building over the past 4 years for autocross.
With the supercharger, we were maxing out around 177whp. We were not near the limits of the injectors, but the sc already had a smaller pully kit on it and would not make anymore boost then 11-12psi with the water-to-air intercooler. We spent many hours tuning it, and that is pretty close to the best it would do. Not many people have been able to get more out of the same setup.
After swapping to turbo with the same water to air intercooler, we're now near maxing out our injectors at 13-14psi and making upwards of 200whp+ at only 9-10psi.
The other thing to remember is, you may say there is "lag" when you step on it (even within the turbo's efficiency range) and you want that power at that instant on the track. A good driver will adjust their driving style to compensate for the delay in power. Meaning; get on the throttle sooner! lol. I had to learn this after we went to the turbo. Now I've got to hit the gas long before I want the power. I know the car and I know when the turbo comes on and I compensate my driving style to match it.
With a properly matched turbo and some nifty engineering, you can have a pretty damn fast-spooling setup.
With the supercharger, we were maxing out around 177whp. We were not near the limits of the injectors, but the sc already had a smaller pully kit on it and would not make anymore boost then 11-12psi with the water-to-air intercooler. We spent many hours tuning it, and that is pretty close to the best it would do. Not many people have been able to get more out of the same setup.
After swapping to turbo with the same water to air intercooler, we're now near maxing out our injectors at 13-14psi and making upwards of 200whp+ at only 9-10psi.
The other thing to remember is, you may say there is "lag" when you step on it (even within the turbo's efficiency range) and you want that power at that instant on the track. A good driver will adjust their driving style to compensate for the delay in power. Meaning; get on the throttle sooner! lol. I had to learn this after we went to the turbo. Now I've got to hit the gas long before I want the power. I know the car and I know when the turbo comes on and I compensate my driving style to match it.
With a properly matched turbo and some nifty engineering, you can have a pretty damn fast-spooling setup.
23-Feb-2010, 04:30 PM
#16
@Mykel_EG:
You can put the same turbo on civic if you wanted. The STi is still a 4 banger. Subaru uses a ByPass Valve (BPV) instead of a Blow Off Valve(BOV), which seems like a much better idea. If you wanted, search my CRX build, still more than $3500, but that's apples and oranges there.
@MPR:
I agree, it is about driving style. However, when you lift in a turn, and your blow off dumps, and you get back on it, I'm sure you're aware of the lag. A BPV helps a bit with that, but not compaired to a Superharger. I could see an electric bov being more effective when building the boost once powering out of the apex, and stopping bleeding.
@OP:
Supercharging IS cheaper IMO, but isn't as rewarding as a turbo. I would supercharge something if I didn't have the coin for a FULL turbo setup. At the end of the day, adding a supercharger won't make it slower
-B
You can put the same turbo on civic if you wanted. The STi is still a 4 banger. Subaru uses a ByPass Valve (BPV) instead of a Blow Off Valve(BOV), which seems like a much better idea. If you wanted, search my CRX build, still more than $3500, but that's apples and oranges there.
@MPR:
I agree, it is about driving style. However, when you lift in a turn, and your blow off dumps, and you get back on it, I'm sure you're aware of the lag. A BPV helps a bit with that, but not compaired to a Superharger. I could see an electric bov being more effective when building the boost once powering out of the apex, and stopping bleeding.
@OP:
Supercharging IS cheaper IMO, but isn't as rewarding as a turbo. I would supercharge something if I didn't have the coin for a FULL turbo setup. At the end of the day, adding a supercharger won't make it slower
-B
24-Feb-2010, 02:26 PM
#17
Inactive
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Where my car is.
Posts: 5,460
@MPR:
I agree, it is about driving style. However, when you lift in a turn, and your blow off dumps, and you get back on it, I'm sure you're aware of the lag. A BPV helps a bit with that, but not compaired to a Superharger. I could see an electric bov being more effective when building the boost once powering out of the apex, and stopping bleeding.
I agree, it is about driving style. However, when you lift in a turn, and your blow off dumps, and you get back on it, I'm sure you're aware of the lag. A BPV helps a bit with that, but not compaired to a Superharger. I could see an electric bov being more effective when building the boost once powering out of the apex, and stopping bleeding.
Funny you should mention en e-bov. We're actually going to be using an electric fast-actuating bov on our MR2 for this coming season. We'll see how well it works. I'm confident with a bit of programing it will solve our compressor surge issues.
24-Feb-2010, 04:26 PM
#18
I just got the Cobb Stage 1 for my STi... Huge difference! I love it! It's changed the power band, and is so much better. Before it would spike at 3-4000 RPMs, now it's a constant raise. (Also 33trq. and 15awhp) The spike could put you sideways ( ) but died there after.
I think before I ment boost controller, not BOV. Either way, electric over mechanical
-B
) but died there after.I think before I ment boost controller, not BOV. Either way, electric over mechanical
-B
26-Feb-2010, 10:04 AM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 189
^^Another example, the 87 MR2 I've been building over the past 4 years for autocross.
With the supercharger, we were maxing out around 177whp. We were not near the limits of the injectors, but the sc already had a smaller pully kit on it and would not make anymore boost then 11-12psi with the water-to-air intercooler. We spent many hours tuning it, and that is pretty close to the best it would do. Not many people have been able to get more out of the same setup.
After swapping to turbo with the same water to air intercooler, we're now near maxing out our injectors at 13-14psi and making upwards of 200whp+ at only 9-10psi.
The other thing to remember is, you may say there is "lag" when you step on it (even within the turbo's efficiency range) and you want that power at that instant on the track. A good driver will adjust their driving style to compensate for the delay in power. Meaning; get on the throttle sooner! lol. I had to learn this after we went to the turbo. Now I've got to hit the gas long before I want the power. I know the car and I know when the turbo comes on and I compensate my driving style to match it.
With a properly matched turbo and some nifty engineering, you can have a pretty damn fast-spooling setup.
With the supercharger, we were maxing out around 177whp. We were not near the limits of the injectors, but the sc already had a smaller pully kit on it and would not make anymore boost then 11-12psi with the water-to-air intercooler. We spent many hours tuning it, and that is pretty close to the best it would do. Not many people have been able to get more out of the same setup.
After swapping to turbo with the same water to air intercooler, we're now near maxing out our injectors at 13-14psi and making upwards of 200whp+ at only 9-10psi.
The other thing to remember is, you may say there is "lag" when you step on it (even within the turbo's efficiency range) and you want that power at that instant on the track. A good driver will adjust their driving style to compensate for the delay in power. Meaning; get on the throttle sooner! lol. I had to learn this after we went to the turbo. Now I've got to hit the gas long before I want the power. I know the car and I know when the turbo comes on and I compensate my driving style to match it.
With a properly matched turbo and some nifty engineering, you can have a pretty damn fast-spooling setup.
The supercharger vs. turbo debate is an ages old even for Honda guys. Both have their own benefits and weakness. I personally chose the S/C route. For me, initial setup was less than a turbo, the driveability was much greater but my overall power figure will be lower than a comparative turbo.
Oh yeah, the sound is way better from an S/C....
26-Feb-2010, 03:03 PM
#20
Inactive
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Where my car is.
Posts: 5,460
