kid_kat

Hi all,

Finally had the oppourtunity to upload my dynos

Car 1994 Honda Civic Si, 1st gen b16a, t3/t4 to4e turbo,2.5" d/p,2.5" full exhaust,tial 38mm wastegate, turbosmart bov, cast manifold.
Turbo specs t3/t4 to4e .50/.57/.63
Please keep in mind the 1st dyno of HiVelocity Tuning was @ 14.5psi with e-cut out open, with it closed it only made 250whp. 2nd tune was done with e-cut out closed and at 12psi SPLITFIRE

1st dyno is Hi Velocity's tune 14.5PSI E-cut out OPEN( zeeman )



2nd Dyno is same EXACT CAR/ SAME EXACT MOTOR/ SAME EXACT SETUP BUT IN THE HANDS OF SPLITFIRE & only @ 12PSI



And this is the pic of the set-up :



Please feel free to ask any questions... and to post up your own b16 dynos.

Mugen Power

sae vs std, and dynoing at a higher reading roller = more power

kid_kat

Well 110mph = about 180 km/h.

I had the car dyno'd 2 other times (at a shop in toronto).... another dyno after the 276whp pull about 5 days later made 256whp best of 3 pulls @ 14.5psi closed e-cut out.

Same dyno made 312whp best whp right before putting car in storage in Nov.

Also car made 258whp 1st pull @ splitfire with old tune.(October)

So 250whp @ Tag in May,256whp@ another dyno in May,258whp @splitfire in Oct b4 he re-tuned it for 318whp!!!

Also car couldnt break any better then low 14's at 103mph (slick) 1st tune ( went to track 5 different times!)
Car went 13.2 @ 111MPH (1st pass new tune street tire)
Car felt like NIGHT and Day after 2nd tune.

kid_kat

SAE -- The SAE standard applied is a modified version of the SAE J1349 standard of June 1990. Power is corrected to reference conditions of 29.23 InHg (99 kPa) of dry air and 77 F (25°C). This SAE standard requires a correction for friction torque. Friction torque can be determined by measurements on special motoring dynamometers (which is only practical in research environments) or can be estimated. When estimates must be used, the SAE standard uses a default Mechanical Efficiency (ME) value of 85%. This is approximately correct at peak torque but not at other engine operating speeds. Some dynamometer systems use the SAE correction factor for atmospheric conditions but do not take mechanical efficiency into consideration at all (i.e. they assume a ME of 100%). SuperFlow uses a more sophisticated algorithm for calculating friction torque, based on a summary of thousands of friction power tests performed by the automotive industry. This proprietary algorithm estimates friction torque as a function of piston speed and engine displacement.


STP -- The STP (also called STD) standard is another power correction standard determined by the SAE. This standard has been stable for a long time and is widely used in the performance industry. Power is corrected to reference conditions of 29.92 InHg (103.3 kPa) of dry air and 60 F (15.5°C). Because the reference conditions include higher pressure and cooler air than the SAE standard, these corrected power numbers will always be about 4 % higher than the SAE power numbers. Friction torque is handled in the same way as in the SAE standard. Once again, this means the STP corrected power displayed by your SuperFlow test system will be more accurate than power numbers obtained using a default Mechanical Efficiency of 100% or 85%.

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

wow, if this isn't an attack at me, I don't know what is.

Its funny how you didn't mention how when you first brought the car to me the timing belt was installed improperly (off a tooth or two) and that your previous (and new) tuner tuned your car like that anyways.

Your car made that power (276whp) at 12psi. We did 1 pull at 14psi and it made the same power as 12psi then we stopped tuning. Remember? This is why I recommended to turn the boost back down to 12psi and we did.

Also, it didn't make anymore power with the E-cutout open compared to the E-cutout closed. I have dyno sheets to show E-cutout closed VS E-cutout open and I assure you there is NO DIFFERENCE.

Then you didn't want to pay for more tuning to turn the boost up properly, so you turned it up on your own and it started running funny. You didn't even want to pay for me to street tune your car again for your new boost level, nevermind put it back on the dyno to tune it properly for your new boost level.

Comparing dynos is a waste of time, everybody knows different dynos read different numbers....especially when you're comparing Tag's SAE numbers (which typically read the lowest) to Splitfire's STD numbers (which typically read the highest numbers).

After all the (free) help I provided before you installed your turbo kit (remember bringing your mechanic to my shop so I could explain stuff to him) and even after tuning you do something like this? You're welcome for all of the help.

I guess High_in_Fibre is still banned so you made a new username?

I'm so glad I spent 12 hours working on your car and still cut you a deal on the price to get this in return.

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

Just for referrence

This is a t3/t04e on a stock b16 at 12psi......278.13whp 193.59wtq SAE


This is a t3/t04e on a stock b16 at 12psi.....268.33whp 184.74wtq SAE


This is a gt3255e (very very similar to a t3/t04e) on a stock b16 at 11psi.....279.81whp 189.95wtq


I'm showing you these to show that this is very typical for a t3/t04e around 12psi on the dyno I use. So kidkat (Frank, High_in_Fibre, FPMotorports) your numbers aren't out of the ordinary for your setup on this dyno.

ol Dusty

iTrader: (2)

I wouldn't worry too much about this being an attack on you Zee. This guy is either high_on_fibre or just plain high if he thinks saying anything negative about your shop on this site is gonna do anything more then give you an opportunity to make him look like a 8 post n00b, some more publicity (not like you need it) and us a chance to flame on him.

the tune can only be as good as the car you brought Zee to tune in the first place. I've seen dyno sheets to prove he's made 400hp on a D16. So it's not like he can't get good numbers outta a B series. maybe if you spent as much time reading up on dyno's as you do putting a car not yet ready for one on one then you'd know that you could run your car on one dyno, drive to the next and get totally different numbers. Regarless of who tuned it.

flipflop

well said...cheap people equal cheap numbers...lol

Bradsma

I've dealt with Frank, High_in_Fibre, FPMotorports. Was not happy with the out come of it. Long story but unhappy none the less.

When I started posting questions about dyno tuning and other questions regarding turbo set ups, he would always PM me bad talking Zeeman. Well in the spring I'm heading to Zeeman for my tune and alot of other things and I'm sure I'll be as happy as everyone else on this board that go to him. I'd rather get "bad numbers" with Zeeman then give him anymore buisness.

Zeeman has already given me more help with any questions I've had than anyone else on this board.

See you in the spring!

jdm_77

i think he stupid for getting a second tune lol

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

Frank, i'll be glad to pay for 3 runs on the dyno at my shop, for comparisons sake to see what your car makes on this dyno. I'm not doubting that it makes that power, clearly you have a dyno sheet to prove it.

What I don't get is why Frank would ask me if he could pay me to teach him how to tune cars, if he thinks i'm such a shitty tuner.

Oh the drama.

kaval

Don't worry Andrew. I'm sure that many people who have dealt with you or have watched you work know that you're not the incompetent tuner that you're being made out to be. I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of stuff like this so I can see how it would certainly be an attack. Nonetheless, an attack is only as strong as its impact, so forget about this dude because he's clearly out to make you look bad.

For curiosity sake, I would like to see what the car in question pulls on the dyno at your shop. Also, if this car did make more power, I wonder how long the motor will last. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not all about the amount of power you're making...?

Keep up the great work and tell Gary to stop hackin up cars! haha

kid_kat

First off :

The car made more power with it Open E-cut out then without it.
It made the 276whp with the E-cut out open.
Then u raised the boost to 15psi and you couldnt make anymore power!
Then we street tuned it.
Aside from the cam gears being in accurate... not the timing belt!
I had 2 other shops compare the cam gears and measure them to degree and they both said cam gears were fine!
Thats a hole other story...
Your regular tune which was done on Neptune is still WAYYY more then what I paid the "other tuner" to tune and "he" got me "BETTER" NUMBERS on paper and at the track!

Secondly I came back to you because the car was studdering... we street tuned for $50 more... and you couldnt figure it out... you said" I have to hook up the wide band for $150 more ontop of the $50 I gave you "

So why don';t u tell it how it is?

Guess what... I went to the "other tuner" and it did not sputter or nothing... he cleaned everything up and re-tuned EVERYTHING!

I don't care if anyone is going to pick my side or yours, if anyone is going to hate on the other tuner or not, ALL IM TRYING TO PUT out there is " YOUR RESULTS DYNO PAPER, DRIVING FEEL, AND TIME SLIPS AT THE TRACK, AND COST vs Another "tuner" WHICH IN MY OPINION IS THE BEST TUNER OUT THERE!

I didn't mean to make any1 upset or uneasy or build some tears in your eyes.

Thanks for the help b4 I did the install, and thanks for the help after when we street tuned for an oil line moving it for me.

But... Im not thanking you for the tune, or the money you cost me!

And don;t take it personally but experience counts...
You just don;t have that many years or cars under your belt like the "other tuner" Maybe...just maybe..... One day you'll be half as good as him.... and you should be greatful.

My opinion if you want to make below average #'s, pay more $$$, have issues un-resolved, and run belo average times @ the track go to the first tuner I went to.
If you want " Awsome numbers, more then fair price, all your issues resolved, smile on your face, good time slips go to the second tuner that tuned my car and the only tuner I would go to in the future / recomend!
Just my opinion ofcourse...every1 is entilted to one!

And with Bradsma :

Well thanks for stabbing me in the back!
After all the e-mails and help I gave you this is what I get?
I supply parts only! All my parts work! I have sold many of those kits...and guess what it's the exact same kit on my car when I got tuned the 2nd time!
The 1st time I got tuned with Zeeman it was my Signature kit but with a tial wastegate and turbosmart bov, 2nd tune everything was the same but I put on your wastegate the one i sell / recomend, and my hks style bov.
Anyways from the very begining I told you BRAD : " GO to splitfire for the install... hes the only guy I recomend." I gave you a rough price... it was "too high" for you.
Then I said well I have a guy who has done a few of my swaps b4 and he can do it for cheap.
It was up to you...who to go to! I didn;t tell you to go anywhere...and I still insisted you went to splitfire! You said no...it's too much $$$ right now...
So you went to the chinese guy....some complications came up with him...
And I paid for your 2 night stay at the nearest inn, then I even paid for a car rental for you to go back to London and come back. I was there 24/7 trying to get on the chinese guys *** to make him finish the job. I even put on all the piping, intercooler, turbo, manifold etc... all he did was do your oil pan, clock the turbo etc..... I WENT OUT OF MY WAY TO TRY AND MAKE YOU HAPPY!
WHO WOULD DO THAT? WHO WOULD PAY FOR A 2 NIGHT STAY AT A INN? WHO WOULD PAY FOR A CAR RENTAL? ONLY SOMEONE WHO TRULLY CARED ABOUT THERE CLIENTS...I COULD HAVE TURNED MY BACK ON YOU AND SAID " SORRY I SUPPLY THE PARTS, NOT THE LABOUR YOU DEAL WITH HIM " BUT DID I? NO!!!! I HAD TO TAKE MONEY OUT OF MY OWN POCKET TO TRY AND MAKE YOU HAPPY! I WENT ARROUND TO GET YOUR EXHAUST DONE, THEN I PAID FOR YOUR FULL EXHAUST SYSTEM TO BE ALL INSTALLED.
FOR THE RECORD YOU PAID ME $500 FOR INSTALL OF TURBO KIT, INSTALL OF GAUGES, AND INSTALL OF A COMPLETE EXHAUST SYSTEM FROM THE DOWNPIPE BACK! OUT OF THAT...I PAID THE CHINESE GUY, THE EXHAUST GUY, 2 NIGHTS AT A INN AND 1 DAY CAR RENTAL FOR YOU...I LOST MONEY... BUT I DIDNT CARE....I WANTED YOU HAPPY....THANKS!
BUT I LEARNED MY LESSON! IM THE PARTS GUY...AND I ONLY RECOMEND SPLITFIRE FROM NOW ON.... I HAVE SENT MANY INSTALLS THERE ALL DONE THE SAME DAY AND TUNED SAME DAY! NO ONE IS UPSET EVERY1 IS HAPPY!
IF IN THE FUTURE I GET SOME CHEAPO LIKE YOU... I'LL SAY SORRY I ONLY SELL PARTS FOR THE INSTALL IF THE GUY I RECOMEND IS TOO EXPENSIVE FIND SOMEONE ELSE!
I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU BRAD!
OHH AND I EVEN DROVE AN HOUR TO MEET YOU THE FIRST TIME TO GET YOUR DEPOSIT.... I WENT WAYYYYY OUT OF MY WAY FOR YOU!!!! THIS IS WHAT I GET! THANKS MAN!

kid_kat

I also supplied the oil, filter and stage 7 spark plugs for you!
and gave you food!
I tried my hardest to resolve the issue and I was involved 200% in it...trying to make you happy... thanks brad... i learned my lesson!

civicEJ1

iTrader: (2)

dramaaaa

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

you're proving to me that you weren't listening to me the whole time.

I said for a proper re-tune, it was $150 (total, not on top of the $50 you gave me for my time) thats $100 for the hour of dyno time and $50 for my time.

Doing 1-2 pulls at 14psi isn't tuning it, YOU wanted to see if it would make more power at 14psi (against my recommendation), so we did 1-2 pulls at 14psi and it didn't really make any substaintial gains b/c it wasn't tuned for 14psi. Then we ran out of time, so we turned the boost back down to 12psi and finished the street tuning.

The $50 you gave me that one day was for my time to hook up the laptop to see how much boost it was really running. I told you to even put the wideband into your car its at least $100, you didn't want to spend that much, so we didn't re-tune. I tried making a couple of blind adjustments as the car was studdering at your new un-tuned boost level, it didn't fix anything and I beleive you said you would turn the boost down then come back at another day and never returned.

See you didn't want to spend the extra $150 for a proper re-tune. The proper re-tune wouldn't even have been necessary had you spent the extra cash on the first dyno tuning session. The ONLY reason you paid more was b/c we used more dyno time AND your car showed up with the timing belt being lined up incorrectly. You can't deny this b/c the first couple of pulls we did @ 5psi was like 190(ish)whp and we were like "WTF why is the power so low" checked the ignition timing and it wasn't lined up and we couldn't line it with by adjusting the dizzy so we checked the timing belt and the marks weren't lining up.

We then pulled the car off the dyno, fixed your timing belt (for an additional fee, of course this couple of hours of labour wouldn't be free) and put everything back together. After strapping the car back to the dyno and making no other adjustments the power went up to 210(ish)whp, proving that your timing belt wasn't on properly in the first place.

The timing marks on your cam gears to me (and my mechanics) were questionable so we provided you with a OEM set of gears and finished the tuning.

I agree with your 100% that experience counts. I have about 4-5 years now of experience tuning strictly hondas/acuras. I know Paul has more, but you hear a LOT more horror stories about splitfire nowadays. Hell I have firsthand experience and a car to show you how hacked up their work is. I'm not getting into it about them on here b/c there is no point.

My tuning price is pretty much less than 90% of the other tuners out there. You paid more b/c we used more than the 3 hours of dyno time my tuning price includes, I beleive I provided you with a MAP sensor and installed it and also the extra labour for my mechanics to fix your timing belt.

I'm sorry your not happy, but seriously, I can't control the fact that you didn't want to spend the extra money it would've taken to fix the problem you created by turning the boost up. You can't deny that the car didn't run well, get 500kms to a tank of gas and run fine at 12psi like where we tuned it.

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

oh and just so you know frank, a few people have told me that you're sending them PM's trash talking me, telling them to go to splitfire. So I was fully aware of this and how two-faced you are.

kid_kat

Zeeman : You told me $150 was on-top of the $50 I gave you for 1hr street tuning!
We never spoke about further tuning..... and you told me with the $150 extra ontop of $50 = $200 extra you couldnt guarantee the sputtering to go away.

You gave me a map sensor? Yes... But I paid for it the 1st time I cam to Tag to pick up a resistor box. Then you gave me another map sensor and I paid for that one. None of the map sensors were included in the tune price of $950 that I paid you. Both map sensors were paid for b4 / after the tuning date!

The cam gear thing was all a scam... whether you want to man up to it or not. Or I'll contact the 2 other shops who both checked the gears / degree if I can mention there name.

Your "normal" tuning was $600 - including the Neptune License.
There's a lot of tuners who do it for less then that!

Im currious to see if any1 else tuned by you has noticed they have been scammed?

Any1 been tuned by Zeeman and get " your cam gears are not exact and printed degrees are off " or any other excuse.....?

And you can ask arround if any1 has been scamed by myself? Answer would be NO! I go out of my way to make sure ppl come back!
Only person who has delt with me that would be upset and I don't understand why would be Bradsma on this forum.
But I went way out of my way to shelter him for 2 nights, give him transportation and food! And he is thankful for saying " long story short I did not like dealing with Frank "

Like I said b4... Im the parts guy... and will only recomend qualified Shops to do work from "then" on. So every1 will be told to go to Splitfire... if they think his price is too much or w.e ( which I don't see them being like that I know there very reasonable ) I will just tell them to find someone on there own... so no one can say nething! Honestly you lose money, go WAY out of your way to make someone happy and then they go on a forum and talk smack about you. WOW!

And finally... Zeeman I must say the car got GREAT gas millage about 500km/35/L. But honestly the car just didnt move.... what B16 on boost @ 12psi+ will run 14's on a slick? Maybe I don't have enough years racing? Well I've had 2 other drivers with "Race Licenses" drive the car and a few other good drivers and they still couldnt hack a 13 on a 22x8x15 MT slick.
Sad... since getting re-tuned PROPERLY ran a 13.2 @ 111mph on a street tire and then track got rained out.

Don't worry Zeeman I will still recomend you to ppl if they want to : get ripped off/scammed, make NO REAL power, and run crappy times @ the track.... sure I'll tell them to contact you. Oh and i'll add you'll get 500km/35L....

D.T.P

lmfao hilarious thread.
Frank, i have contacted you several times via email though you probably do not remember, i was asking bunch of questions well more like specs about the turbos you sell. not even once you gave me any numbers other than "its top of the line t3/t4 wont find it cheaper anywhere else".
anyways im sure Andrew can tune very well, when i was gathering turbo parts and had questions he was kind enough to answer everything via pm. his prices are reasonable and ofcourse you can find cheaper but cheaper is not always better. i wouldnt want an asian guy who doesnt speak english tunning my car and having it blow up in a week or two. now ive never dealt with spitfire but ive heard few bad things about em from few of my friends.
just call it a day and stop this drama. Frank you sound imature and a lot like a mentally retarded kid.

kid_kat

Hi Martin,

Good to hear from you too.
Actually when you e-mailed me I told you I sold many different types of turbos...and many different spec'd t3/t4 to4e.. the main one being t3/t4 to4e .50/.57/.63 trim.
And the comment of me being an immature mentally retarded kid... how old are you?
Not once did I refer to name calling... just stating facts. For the record this is "hurting" im stating facts here and my opinion I don't need others who are not involved calling me an immature kid/mentally ill. This is just wasting my time.
And your friends telling you bad stories about Splitfire? Hmm let me guess " A buddy of mines buddy went there and got ripped off " WOW! Not someone who has had first hand experience like myself. All a bunch of haters... much like this thread.... no one has delt with me here except for Bradsma and the rest just hate.
I will not longer be wasting my time on this thread as it is getting out of hand and very childish in my opinion. Say what you want, believe what you want.... facts and paper speaks for themselves.

Lastly I would like to thank all those who have read these threads and not placed their unrelated input.