SWAP D16Y8 for a D15B
25-Aug-2010, 08:50 AM
#21
Inactive
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Where my car is.
Posts: 5,460
^I'd have to agree. Since it's the 3 stage vtec system, you should run the dual solenoid as that is the way the engine was designed. By removing one of those solenoids, your removing one of those stages and greatly reducing the engines efficiency.
jdm ek4, kaval; When you switch to the single solenoid, which one does it replace? The 12-16valve operation, or the switch to the bigger vtec cam lobe? Or does it do both at once? (I'm guessing both stages at once)
I'm not sure if the 2 solenoids are controlable with a chipped p28 (or whatever), but I would keep the dual solenoid setup. Other wise, your basically running 12 valves and choking the engine right up to 5500rpm when it switches to 16 valves and the bigger vtec cam lobe all at once. That doesn't make sense to me. After reading about jdm ek4's experience, it sounds like this engine was really designed to run with the 2 stages as intended.
I don't know as much about the d-series as I do about the b-series engines, and especially the d15b, but now after hearing jdm ek4's comments I now understand why, when I saw a d15b dyno'd a while back, it literally lost power through the mid-range and once vtec engaged (16 valves and the bigger cam) the power then jumped up to where it should be. (see dyno chart below)
This looks like a prime example of removing the dual stage solenoid with a single stage and engaging both stages at once at 5500rpm. It could also be partly an improper tune on this engine as I don't know what ecu or what else had been done to it. But it was a d15b.
jdm ek4, kaval; When you switch to the single solenoid, which one does it replace? The 12-16valve operation, or the switch to the bigger vtec cam lobe? Or does it do both at once? (I'm guessing both stages at once)
I'm not sure if the 2 solenoids are controlable with a chipped p28 (or whatever), but I would keep the dual solenoid setup. Other wise, your basically running 12 valves and choking the engine right up to 5500rpm when it switches to 16 valves and the bigger vtec cam lobe all at once. That doesn't make sense to me. After reading about jdm ek4's experience, it sounds like this engine was really designed to run with the 2 stages as intended.
I don't know as much about the d-series as I do about the b-series engines, and especially the d15b, but now after hearing jdm ek4's comments I now understand why, when I saw a d15b dyno'd a while back, it literally lost power through the mid-range and once vtec engaged (16 valves and the bigger cam) the power then jumped up to where it should be. (see dyno chart below)
This looks like a prime example of removing the dual stage solenoid with a single stage and engaging both stages at once at 5500rpm. It could also be partly an improper tune on this engine as I don't know what ecu or what else had been done to it. But it was a d15b.
Last edited by MPR; 25-Aug-2010 at 09:03 AM.
25-Aug-2010, 12:52 PM
#22
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 64
Even if I leave both solenoids on their, I think I will be **** out of luck until I get the right ECU. Kaval seemed to have some luck getting a P08 I think tuned to have Vtec kick in earlier, maybe that might be easier than trying hunt the infamous ECU for the 5 speed
25-Aug-2010, 12:53 PM
#23
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 64
Thanks for the input! Now, when u did the swap, did you have an CEL? I am getting code P1337 and I believe its wiring issue, also my Speedo is not working.....
I had this motor put in my coupe couple of years ago. I replaced the dual vtec solenoid to the one, changed the intake manifold to the D16y8 and used the tranny from the D16y8 as well. I also used the D16y8 ecu too, the main problem i had with this motor would be no power from idle all the way to 5500rpm. Thats when the vtec kicked in.
Basically, the 3 stage vtec works as 3 steps. From idle to 2500rpm only 12 valves are working, than from 2500rpm to 5500rpm the 1st solenoid engages and all 16 valves work, than at 5500rpm till 7600rpm the 2nd solenoid activates and you get the VTEC. lol So, from using the single vtec solenoid, you are missing the 2nd stage which is 2500rpm-5500rpm. Thats why when i had this set up done, my car didnt have ***** and you can hear the vtec crossover like a bseries. On gas, i was getting 650km to the tank but you will get frustrated and try to beat the **** out of it because simply.......................it just doesnt move. lol
This motor is like the vtec-e, its just a gas saving engine. They did make this motor in manual but the ecu is really hard to find. For OBD2a, look for P2J-003, and for OBD2b you need P2J-J11.
Basically, the 3 stage vtec works as 3 steps. From idle to 2500rpm only 12 valves are working, than from 2500rpm to 5500rpm the 1st solenoid engages and all 16 valves work, than at 5500rpm till 7600rpm the 2nd solenoid activates and you get the VTEC. lol So, from using the single vtec solenoid, you are missing the 2nd stage which is 2500rpm-5500rpm. Thats why when i had this set up done, my car didnt have ***** and you can hear the vtec crossover like a bseries. On gas, i was getting 650km to the tank but you will get frustrated and try to beat the **** out of it because simply.......................it just doesnt move. lol
This motor is like the vtec-e, its just a gas saving engine. They did make this motor in manual but the ecu is really hard to find. For OBD2a, look for P2J-003, and for OBD2b you need P2J-J11.
25-Aug-2010, 02:15 PM
#24
Inactive
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Where my car is.
Posts: 5,460
What you could do to not choke the engine out, have decent low-mid range power and still have the 2nd stage vtec engaging at the proper rpm is to have the 1st stage (activates all 16 valves) active at all times. That is the way all other vtec engines run. That would give you a much better power curve instead of having less and less power as the engine struggles to rev, then having everything open up all at once.
The solenoids are activated by simply powering them, or not (on or off). It really shouldn't be that difficult to have them engage at the correct rpm.
But I really would not run with just one solenoid activating both stages at once. You need all 16 valves operating to make sufficient power through the mid range.
25-Aug-2010, 02:23 PM
#25
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 64
What you just said sounds very correct in terms of having both engage at the second stage....I read that in a few places. Another option many people seemed to go with was a vtec controller to control the second solenoid....hmmm do you have any idea how I would get both solenoids going together, like a splice or something so they both activate earlier?
Thanks for the help
Thanks for the help
Without getting into cam lift and duration and the effect those things have on the rpm effeciency range, I'll just say this: Significantly lowering the vtec engagement is not necessarily a good idea.
What you could do to not choke the engine out, have decent low-mid range power and still have the 2nd stage vtec engaging at the proper rpm is to have the 1st stage (activates all 16 valves) active at all times. That is the way all other vtec engines run. That would give you a much better power curve instead of having less and less power as the engine struggles to rev, then having everything open up all at once.
The solenoids are activated by simply powering them, or not (on or off). It really shouldn't be that difficult to have them engage at the correct rpm.
But I really would not run with just one solenoid activating both stages at once. You need all 16 valves operating to make sufficient power through the mid range.
What you could do to not choke the engine out, have decent low-mid range power and still have the 2nd stage vtec engaging at the proper rpm is to have the 1st stage (activates all 16 valves) active at all times. That is the way all other vtec engines run. That would give you a much better power curve instead of having less and less power as the engine struggles to rev, then having everything open up all at once.
The solenoids are activated by simply powering them, or not (on or off). It really shouldn't be that difficult to have them engage at the correct rpm.
But I really would not run with just one solenoid activating both stages at once. You need all 16 valves operating to make sufficient power through the mid range.
25-Aug-2010, 02:58 PM
#26
Inactive
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Where my car is.
Posts: 5,460
What you just said sounds very correct in terms of having both engage at the second stage....I read that in a few places. Another option many people seemed to go with was a vtec controller to control the second solenoid....hmmm do you have any idea how I would get both solenoids going together, like a splice or something so they both activate earlier?
Thanks for the help
Thanks for the help
From now on, to avoid any confusion, I'll refer to them as the 2nd and 3rd stage.
You don't want them both to activate earlier and at the same time. 2nd stage engages all 16 valves and the 3rd stage switches to the bigger cam lobes on the sam shaft. By only running 12 valves up to 5500rpm (or whatever) is severely restricting the engine, just as shown on that dyno graph posted earlier. For smooth power delievery and optimal efficiency, you need all 16 valves engaging earlier and seperately from the large cam engagement (3rd stage).
If you have the 2nd stage solenoid on an ignition or keyed power source, it'll keep all 16 valves engaged at all times. Not a bad thing and the engine will run same as always, only it will GAIN power through the mid-range like it is supposed to. Then, at the correct rpm, the ecu will activate the 3rd stage (big cam lobes) for top end power.
Make sense?
25-Aug-2010, 03:29 PM
#27
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 64
Makes a ton of sense, thanks! Phew, so all is not lost just yet.... Okay so for now, the shop has put the single solenoid on....I should be able to get to it and put the double back on later when I go through the fix... right now my first priority was getting the dam car back on the road so I can drive!
So how would I go about doing this "If you have the 2nd stage solenoid on an ignition or keyed power source, it'll keep all 16 valves engaged at all times". Do you simply mean grounding the solenoid and running a wire straight to something ( I don't know what would be a ignition powered source)
Respect!
So how would I go about doing this "If you have the 2nd stage solenoid on an ignition or keyed power source, it'll keep all 16 valves engaged at all times". Do you simply mean grounding the solenoid and running a wire straight to something ( I don't know what would be a ignition powered source)
Respect!
Maybe I've been confusing you by refering to the 1st and 2nd stage. I've been calling the 1st stage when all the valves engage (technically the 2nd stage) and the 2nd stage when the cam changes over (technically the 3rd stage). The 1st stage is technically before either of the solenoids (vtec stages) activate.
From now on, to avoid any confusion, I'll refer to them as the 2nd and 3rd stage.
You don't want them both to activate earlier and at the same time. 2nd stage engages all 16 valves and the 3rd stage switches to the bigger cam lobes on the sam shaft. By only running 12 valves up to 5500rpm (or whatever) is severely restricting the engine, just as shown on that dyno graph posted earlier. For smooth power delievery and optimal efficiency, you need all 16 valves engaging earlier and seperately from the large cam engagement (3rd stage).
If you have the 2nd stage solenoid on an ignition or keyed power source, it'll keep all 16 valves engaged at all times. Not a bad thing and the engine will run same as always, only it will GAIN power through the mid-range like it is supposed to. Then, at the correct rpm, the ecu will activate the 3rd stage (big cam lobes) for top end power.
Make sense?
From now on, to avoid any confusion, I'll refer to them as the 2nd and 3rd stage.
You don't want them both to activate earlier and at the same time. 2nd stage engages all 16 valves and the 3rd stage switches to the bigger cam lobes on the sam shaft. By only running 12 valves up to 5500rpm (or whatever) is severely restricting the engine, just as shown on that dyno graph posted earlier. For smooth power delievery and optimal efficiency, you need all 16 valves engaging earlier and seperately from the large cam engagement (3rd stage).
If you have the 2nd stage solenoid on an ignition or keyed power source, it'll keep all 16 valves engaged at all times. Not a bad thing and the engine will run same as always, only it will GAIN power through the mid-range like it is supposed to. Then, at the correct rpm, the ecu will activate the 3rd stage (big cam lobes) for top end power.
Make sense?
25-Aug-2010, 03:45 PM
#28
Inactive
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Where my car is.
Posts: 5,460
^Haha, well the method I mentioned is just one way you could do it.... you'd have to find out which solenoid is which. The one that is the 2nd stage (activates 1st, opens all valves) is the one you want to "lock-on" or keep activated. The 3rd stage (changes cams) would still be activated by the ecu and remain plugged in as usual.
Have you driven the car as is? What ecu are you currently running?
The d15b is an excellent motor for daily driving. Who cares if it's not the most powerful...lol. I'd put one in a lightweight hatch for commuting.... It's designed to be efficient and sip fuel. That's why I would try to keep it setup, running and operating as close to stock as possible.
Have you driven the car as is? What ecu are you currently running?
The d15b is an excellent motor for daily driving. Who cares if it's not the most powerful...lol. I'd put one in a lightweight hatch for commuting.... It's designed to be efficient and sip fuel. That's why I would try to keep it setup, running and operating as close to stock as possible.
25-Aug-2010, 03:52 PM
#29
Inactive
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Where my car is.
Posts: 5,460
By looking at the picture of the double solenoid, it is already grounded. Of the two wires that are there, one goes to each solenoid. To activate one of them, the ecu simply just activates a relay/switch which sends power to it. ta-da!
25-Aug-2010, 06:56 PM
#31
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 64
I agree I want to keep it close to stock as possible. This is my commuter and I want something very good on gas. I go from pickering to Mississauga mon-fri so I need efficiency!
Just drove the car, it drives okay but I can really feel the lack of vtec but its not so bad.
I am running stock D16y8 ECU and I experienced the following:
1. Check engine code: P1337. Something about a throttle flucutuation sensor. I think I need to mod the ECU
2. Speedo not working
3. Its not idling correctly. Jumping between 2-3 rpm. Mechanic pointed out that new engine does not have one of those idle valves. I took the valve, it basically has an inlet and outlet and connects somewhere close to the thermostat
Dude let me know if ure the right person to do the work on the vtec solenoid.....not sure if u have a shop, but if u do lemme know
Thanks
Just drove the car, it drives okay but I can really feel the lack of vtec but its not so bad.
I am running stock D16y8 ECU and I experienced the following:
1. Check engine code: P1337. Something about a throttle flucutuation sensor. I think I need to mod the ECU
2. Speedo not working
3. Its not idling correctly. Jumping between 2-3 rpm. Mechanic pointed out that new engine does not have one of those idle valves. I took the valve, it basically has an inlet and outlet and connects somewhere close to the thermostat
Dude let me know if ure the right person to do the work on the vtec solenoid.....not sure if u have a shop, but if u do lemme know
Thanks
25-Aug-2010, 07:48 PM
#32
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 64
Dam, it sounds too simple... man do u know how many people have been struggling after getting this motor installed and not knowing the affects of not having the right ecu....and many people have been trying to find the right ecu which is a dime a dozen....so if its a simple wiring, that would be an amazing find
25-Aug-2010, 08:48 PM
#33
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 64
Actually idling between 1-2 rpm slow then when warms up starts going fast between 1 -1.5.....
I agree I want to keep it close to stock as possible. This is my commuter and I want something very good on gas. I go from pickering to Mississauga mon-fri so I need efficiency!
Just drove the car, it drives okay but I can really feel the lack of vtec but its not so bad.
I am running stock D16y8 ECU and I experienced the following:
1. Check engine code: P1337. Something about a throttle flucutuation sensor. I think I need to mod the ECU
2. Speedo not working
3. Its not idling correctly. Jumping between 2-3 rpm. Mechanic pointed out that new engine does not have one of those idle valves. I took the valve, it basically has an inlet and outlet and connects somewhere close to the thermostat
Dude let me know if ure the right person to do the work on the vtec solenoid.....not sure if u have a shop, but if u do lemme know
Thanks
Just drove the car, it drives okay but I can really feel the lack of vtec but its not so bad.
I am running stock D16y8 ECU and I experienced the following:
1. Check engine code: P1337. Something about a throttle flucutuation sensor. I think I need to mod the ECU
2. Speedo not working
3. Its not idling correctly. Jumping between 2-3 rpm. Mechanic pointed out that new engine does not have one of those idle valves. I took the valve, it basically has an inlet and outlet and connects somewhere close to the thermostat
Dude let me know if ure the right person to do the work on the vtec solenoid.....not sure if u have a shop, but if u do lemme know
Thanks
26-Aug-2010, 10:45 AM
#34
Inactive
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Where my car is.
Posts: 5,460
Best person to talk to about ecu stuff and getting all this setup for you is Andrew (zeeman) at hivelocity tuning. They can be found in the vendors section.
I don't have a shop, per say. I do do all the work/modifications/fabrication on my own car/race car etc... but I'm not a registered shop in that respect. I'm good at figuring out how to make things work and making them work. But when it comes to actually chipping and tunning ecu's, my only experience is with mega-suqirt stand alone systems. I don't recommend going megasquirt with your setup, it's much easier and cheaper to use a chipped OBDI ecu with conversion harness and have it properly tuned.
Again, contact hivelocity tuning for help with getting all this setup properly.
I don't have a shop, per say. I do do all the work/modifications/fabrication on my own car/race car etc... but I'm not a registered shop in that respect. I'm good at figuring out how to make things work and making them work. But when it comes to actually chipping and tunning ecu's, my only experience is with mega-suqirt stand alone systems. I don't recommend going megasquirt with your setup, it's much easier and cheaper to use a chipped OBDI ecu with conversion harness and have it properly tuned.
Again, contact hivelocity tuning for help with getting all this setup properly.
26-Aug-2010, 12:13 PM
#35
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 64
Okay cool, although I don't think the idle issue I am having has anything to do with tuning. I want to get to the bottom of all the little things wrong, once all fixed then I would go for the tuning! Thanks
Best person to talk to about ecu stuff and getting all this setup for you is Andrew (zeeman) at hivelocity tuning. They can be found in the vendors section.
I don't have a shop, per say. I do do all the work/modifications/fabrication on my own car/race car etc... but I'm not a registered shop in that respect. I'm good at figuring out how to make things work and making them work. But when it comes to actually chipping and tunning ecu's, my only experience is with mega-suqirt stand alone systems. I don't recommend going megasquirt with your setup, it's much easier and cheaper to use a chipped OBDI ecu with conversion harness and have it properly tuned.
Again, contact hivelocity tuning for help with getting all this setup properly.
I don't have a shop, per say. I do do all the work/modifications/fabrication on my own car/race car etc... but I'm not a registered shop in that respect. I'm good at figuring out how to make things work and making them work. But when it comes to actually chipping and tunning ecu's, my only experience is with mega-suqirt stand alone systems. I don't recommend going megasquirt with your setup, it's much easier and cheaper to use a chipped OBDI ecu with conversion harness and have it properly tuned.
Again, contact hivelocity tuning for help with getting all this setup properly.
02-Sep-2010, 02:56 AM
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 730
Sorry i havent been on here for a while, i had this swap done in my car a long time ago and not too many ppl were doing this so the person that did this for me had no other way of getting it to run properly without have a CEL on. I needed my car on the road back than asap so thats the reason why i swaped parts from the D16y8. I scrapped that motor the following year, what a waste it was plus it had a centerforce clutch as well. lol
05-Sep-2010, 05:05 PM
#39
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 64
Thanks for the further responses guys, just want to give an update and maybe you got some more info for me. In terms of the idle issue where it is bouncing up and down between 1-2, I might have found the problem.
I removed and cleaned the iacv thoroughly but that did not solve the problem...next step was to take a bottle of throttle body cleaner to the vacuum hoses. I sprayed a bit here and there on the hoses but they seemed fine, but when I got to where the intake manifold connects to the head it started to bog down as I sprayed around there...bingo!
Now this intake manifold is from my stock motor D16Y8 swapped out the one that came with the D15B motor. We changed the seal when the new manifold was put on and I checked the top bolts that I could access and they are very tight...where could this leak be stemming from ?!!?!?!?!?!
Thanks!
I removed and cleaned the iacv thoroughly but that did not solve the problem...next step was to take a bottle of throttle body cleaner to the vacuum hoses. I sprayed a bit here and there on the hoses but they seemed fine, but when I got to where the intake manifold connects to the head it started to bog down as I sprayed around there...bingo!
Now this intake manifold is from my stock motor D16Y8 swapped out the one that came with the D15B motor. We changed the seal when the new manifold was put on and I checked the top bolts that I could access and they are very tight...where could this leak be stemming from ?!!?!?!?!?!
Thanks!
