Engine Build
12-Jul-2010, 02:16 PM
#1
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Brampton
Posts: 61
Engine Build
It's about time. I finally decided to build a motor for my siR. I have read through many of the stickies on here even printed some off to read over and over. I want some opinions and or recommendations ok what I should do.
I want the car to be as quick and powerful as it can be without making it a track car. I don't plan on going to the track much at all. 90% daily driven to maybe 10% track. I decided to go B20/siR. Since I have read the siR is just about the same as a Type R minus minor modifications/port & polish.
I do plan on doing a complete build. I'm not just going to grab the block, slap the head on, and take off. Full build, all internals and then boost. I don't know where to start other than with my block because I don't know how big of a turbo or how much psi I should achieve. I have looked at the numbers on B20/Vtec's alone, just not sure how much power I can get on JUST all motor fully built with internals before boost. Plan on using Skunk2 for the majority of my internals. I am at work right now but will be on tonight. I am 100% into doing this and know I can count on all of you guys/ ladies to help.
Thanks in advance, cuz I'm pretty sure I will be saying it many, many times.
Kevin.
I want the car to be as quick and powerful as it can be without making it a track car. I don't plan on going to the track much at all. 90% daily driven to maybe 10% track. I decided to go B20/siR. Since I have read the siR is just about the same as a Type R minus minor modifications/port & polish.
I do plan on doing a complete build. I'm not just going to grab the block, slap the head on, and take off. Full build, all internals and then boost. I don't know where to start other than with my block because I don't know how big of a turbo or how much psi I should achieve. I have looked at the numbers on B20/Vtec's alone, just not sure how much power I can get on JUST all motor fully built with internals before boost. Plan on using Skunk2 for the majority of my internals. I am at work right now but will be on tonight. I am 100% into doing this and know I can count on all of you guys/ ladies to help.
Thanks in advance, cuz I'm pretty sure I will be saying it many, many times.
Kevin.
12-Jul-2010, 02:57 PM
#2
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Since you are planning to go all out a good place to start would be at machine shop. I would recommend gord bush. Get the block sleeved with darton sleeves. Find some forged low compression pistons/rods, get everything assembled including clutch and crank pulley and let a machine shop balance the whole rotating assembly.
For head, I wouldn't worry about it too much, its not as important to do as if you were to go NA. Stock cams or typeR cams will be just fine. Should also clay the motor if you do end up going with bigger cams. Though should look into the cams specifically designed for forced induction.
Other than that, doing all the seals/gaskets should obviously be done. For turbo, it depends where you want it to spool? Lower rpm and reach close to peek by the top of rpm band or you want it to spool later and stop at rev limit wanting more? Find some compression maps of different turbos and you'll be able to figure out what size turbo will work best for you.
For head, I wouldn't worry about it too much, its not as important to do as if you were to go NA. Stock cams or typeR cams will be just fine. Should also clay the motor if you do end up going with bigger cams. Though should look into the cams specifically designed for forced induction.
Other than that, doing all the seals/gaskets should obviously be done. For turbo, it depends where you want it to spool? Lower rpm and reach close to peek by the top of rpm band or you want it to spool later and stop at rev limit wanting more? Find some compression maps of different turbos and you'll be able to figure out what size turbo will work best for you.
12-Jul-2010, 06:57 PM
#3
also if you already have an sir you may wanna just build and boost that, not arguing b16 vs b20's but you can get really good numbers with what you have and since your really only planing to DD it...
12-Jul-2010, 07:10 PM
#4
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 413
i think the reason for going with another block (at least, its what i would do/am doing) is so that you can build the block and still drive the car until you get to the part where your building the head, which can be done in about an hour and then put on the block, then in the car.
12-Jul-2010, 07:32 PM
#5
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 413
guess i should chime in on parts...
ARP HeadStuds :
New and used b20 arp head studs, Automotive on eBay.ca
darton sleeves :
New and used darton b20, Automotive, CR-V on eBay.ca
je 9.1:1 pistons :
JE PISTON HONDA B20 PART# 185918 85mm 9:1:1 on eBay.ca (item 120588006561 end time 24-Jul-10 20:44:46 EDT)
Eagle rods :
New and used b20 eagle rods, Automotive on eBay.ca
stock crank, HONDA bearings (dont get acl), vtec oil squirter, performance clutch of choice (Bully recommended). A lightweight flywheel is not required, but it will help you rev faster. You said you want skunk 2 head stuff, so
valves :
New and used b16 skunk2 valves, Automotive on eBay.ca
valve springs/retainers :
New and used b16 skunk2 valve springs retainers, Automotive, Civic del Sol on eBay.ca
intake manifold :
New and used b16 skunk2 intake, Automotive, Civic on eBay.ca
Go see wiertec when its time for your exhaust manifold. You can also ask him his opinion on what turbo to get for your setup.
ARP HeadStuds :
New and used b20 arp head studs, Automotive on eBay.ca
darton sleeves :
New and used darton b20, Automotive, CR-V on eBay.ca
je 9.1:1 pistons :
JE PISTON HONDA B20 PART# 185918 85mm 9:1:1 on eBay.ca (item 120588006561 end time 24-Jul-10 20:44:46 EDT)
Eagle rods :
New and used b20 eagle rods, Automotive on eBay.ca
stock crank, HONDA bearings (dont get acl), vtec oil squirter, performance clutch of choice (Bully recommended). A lightweight flywheel is not required, but it will help you rev faster. You said you want skunk 2 head stuff, so
valves :
New and used b16 skunk2 valves, Automotive on eBay.ca
valve springs/retainers :
New and used b16 skunk2 valve springs retainers, Automotive, Civic del Sol on eBay.ca
intake manifold :
New and used b16 skunk2 intake, Automotive, Civic on eBay.ca
Go see wiertec when its time for your exhaust manifold. You can also ask him his opinion on what turbo to get for your setup.
12-Jul-2010, 08:38 PM
#6
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Location: Brampton
Posts: 61
Amazing starting point guys. Special thanks to you I.D. Forget for even submitting links! I will make the final decision either B20 or B18 and have it by this weekend. For what I have read, you can squeeze more out of a B20.
2 Last questions before I pickup the block...
1 Overall B20 vs B18? Which one?
2 Do I really need to spend the cash on sleeves seeing as how I play to be under 5 or 400 horse? I heard with the block guard it should be ok?
I don't want to cheap out in away way, would just rather spend money on what is needer over what would be nice.
2 Last questions before I pickup the block...
1 Overall B20 vs B18? Which one?
2 Do I really need to spend the cash on sleeves seeing as how I play to be under 5 or 400 horse? I heard with the block guard it should be ok?
I don't want to cheap out in away way, would just rather spend money on what is needer over what would be nice.
12-Jul-2010, 08:44 PM
#7
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 413
its L.D.Forget (Lee Daniel Forget), lol, but anyways
a b20 is basically a bored out b18, so the b18 has thicker walls and can handle more boost. For every .1L you can basically assume around 10 more NA HP, so yeah, a b20 will have more hp due to more displacement, but a b18 can handle more boost, but from the sounds of it, your not going to be putting 35 lbs of boost through it. I'd say go b20. To be honest, idk if you really NEED to change the sleeves, you should get the block inspected prior to making that decision. Also do some searching to see how much hp the stock sleeves are good for when boosted. I know its quite a bit of money to get it resleeved, but if you have the money to do it, might as well do it now incase your hp goals change in the future. That way you dont have to tear the block all apart again just to resleeve it.
a b20 is basically a bored out b18, so the b18 has thicker walls and can handle more boost. For every .1L you can basically assume around 10 more NA HP, so yeah, a b20 will have more hp due to more displacement, but a b18 can handle more boost, but from the sounds of it, your not going to be putting 35 lbs of boost through it. I'd say go b20. To be honest, idk if you really NEED to change the sleeves, you should get the block inspected prior to making that decision. Also do some searching to see how much hp the stock sleeves are good for when boosted. I know its quite a bit of money to get it resleeved, but if you have the money to do it, might as well do it now incase your hp goals change in the future. That way you dont have to tear the block all apart again just to resleeve it.
13-Jul-2010, 03:57 AM
#9
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Well I'm doing a B20b with b16 head and a Td05h-20g turbo. Many people told me not to, some people said they did it and it was fine. All depends on several main things: -tune
-power goal
-driving style
If you get a good tune, stay under 300whp and under 7500rpm and also not driving like an idiot bouncing off rev limiter every gear shift, you should be fine. Darton sleeves would definitely be nice addition and a piece of mind really. Also, block guard...I wouldn't use, even the latest golden eagle guard blocks add so much more heat to the block which already gets hotter than other vtec blocks. Since you won't be tracking it, the guard block won't be beneficial nor practical. Those things are good for drag cars that don't see a lot of running time since those cars usually run for about 2 mins or so and only 10-15seconds at woot.
Girdles are good but again...its not something that will cause all the heat problems go away...so that's just something to keep in mind.
-power goal
-driving style
If you get a good tune, stay under 300whp and under 7500rpm and also not driving like an idiot bouncing off rev limiter every gear shift, you should be fine. Darton sleeves would definitely be nice addition and a piece of mind really. Also, block guard...I wouldn't use, even the latest golden eagle guard blocks add so much more heat to the block which already gets hotter than other vtec blocks. Since you won't be tracking it, the guard block won't be beneficial nor practical. Those things are good for drag cars that don't see a lot of running time since those cars usually run for about 2 mins or so and only 10-15seconds at woot.
Girdles are good but again...its not something that will cause all the heat problems go away...so that's just something to keep in mind.
13-Jul-2010, 07:36 AM
#10
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Posts: 61
I have pretty much come to the conclusion that B20B's and B20Z's are identical with the exception of the pistons and compression. Which to me mean nothing as all that will be changed anyways. It only makes sence to use a B20 over a B18 due to the significant gain in low end torque. I think it would be a mistake to make this decision and NOT resleeve the block. I've also searched some images online and don't exactly know how accurate they are, but it seems some B20's with either darton or eagle sleeves don't have room left for a guard anyways? I don't know. But the decision is final.
B20 resleeved will be my block.
B20 resleeved will be my block.
13-Jul-2010, 07:42 AM
#11
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Oh and L.D. Forget (Apologies) I did look up some info last night. Actual numbers were a little scattered, but it seems the average HP on stock sleeves is around 300. I know I want to be over this. I used to drive a stage 2 Dodge SRT-4 and I want to be way quicker than that. I think it's just a mature decision to do the sleeves. This build will consist of patience and doing it right. I think I will be able to appreciate it much more.
Now I have something to do at work all day - Kijiji, Craigslist and these forums. Gotta find my *** a block! haha.
Kev.
Now I have something to do at work all day - Kijiji, Craigslist and these forums. Gotta find my *** a block! haha.
Kev.
13-Jul-2010, 10:15 AM
#13
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Where my car is.
Posts: 5,460
If you're going darton sleeves, you won't need to use a block guard.
When it comes to sizing a turbo, take your time and be very thorough in your research. Look at as many compressor maps for many different turbos to see which one will be best. Since you stated this will be a street car, try to choose a turbo that will give you the widest range possible. Don't be fooled into thinking you need a giant dyno-queen turbo to make big power.
On our race MR2 it's a 1.6L with a rather small turbo from a stock subaru WRX. Even though we're not running the max boost this turbo can put out, it is capable of 25psi boost at 3000rpm and holds that all the way up to 7500rpm! No joke. And drivability is stellar! We looked at the compressor maps of many different turbos and this one was the best matched to our engine size and efficiency range.
Cams are not necessary to change when going with forced induction. Don't use cams designed for NA. The overlap in the timing of those cams will allow all that air being forced in to just flow right through and it will not be efficient and won't make as much power. There are cams specifically designed for forced induction which minimize the overlap timing to help keep all that air in the cylinder and make more power. If you do decided to change cams, you should look into those and look at the lift/duration and compare to the stock cams to see how much of a difference there is. They may not be worth the money.
When it comes to sizing a turbo, take your time and be very thorough in your research. Look at as many compressor maps for many different turbos to see which one will be best. Since you stated this will be a street car, try to choose a turbo that will give you the widest range possible. Don't be fooled into thinking you need a giant dyno-queen turbo to make big power.
On our race MR2 it's a 1.6L with a rather small turbo from a stock subaru WRX. Even though we're not running the max boost this turbo can put out, it is capable of 25psi boost at 3000rpm and holds that all the way up to 7500rpm! No joke. And drivability is stellar! We looked at the compressor maps of many different turbos and this one was the best matched to our engine size and efficiency range.
Cams are not necessary to change when going with forced induction. Don't use cams designed for NA. The overlap in the timing of those cams will allow all that air being forced in to just flow right through and it will not be efficient and won't make as much power. There are cams specifically designed for forced induction which minimize the overlap timing to help keep all that air in the cylinder and make more power. If you do decided to change cams, you should look into those and look at the lift/duration and compare to the stock cams to see how much of a difference there is. They may not be worth the money.
14-Jul-2010, 11:15 AM
#15
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Just goes to show you how much thinking I have been doing...
If I plan on resleeving the block, does it matter if I get a B18 or B20 anyways? I could always buy the sleeves at the bore I want correct? Aren't the blocks identical minus the bore size?
Kev.
If I plan on resleeving the block, does it matter if I get a B18 or B20 anyways? I could always buy the sleeves at the bore I want correct? Aren't the blocks identical minus the bore size?
Kev.
15-Jul-2010, 07:33 PM
#17
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Update... I came across something interesting. I have the opportunity to get a 95 GSR B18C1 Motor. Now I have found out a few things... I can still resleeve it and go to an 84mm thus more displacement. The GSR has a girdle. Already made for Vtec. Squirters and a much bigger intake port. This is what I have found out osme of it may be wrong so please correct me. But is this a better option to fully build and boost over a B18 or B20 vtec boost?
15-Jul-2010, 08:21 PM
#19
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I can get the GSR full motor block and head for 350 and the guy is throwing in the motor stand. The cheapest I could find a b20 full motor was 400 450. Cheapest I could find a b20 block was 200. But overall with the squirters, bigger intake, girdle, isn't it the better build? I could sleeve it like i said at 84 mm and that should make up for some of the torque. I know the crank is smaller too should I change it? I'm so stuck in which way I should go. I want the best lol. Keep in mind I plan to completely change the internals of t he block (i wasn't planning on changing the crank) and I plan on fully changing the internals of the head. Then boost.
