zeeman

iTrader: (1)

there are many things to consider when deciding on a cam.
Such as, where you want your powerband, how high you plan on revving the engine, the static compression ratio (not the only important thing, but a part, important part to building an engine), how well the head flows and how well your supporting mods are (intake, header, exhaust, intake manifold, etc etc).

If you want lots of midrange you'll prolly want a cam with less overlap or a wide Lobe Separation Angle (LSA). If you wanna rev your car to 9k and it make gobs of power up top, you'll want a cam with more overlap or a tight LSA (generally speaking).
Lobe Separation Angle is the angle between the intake and exhaust camshaft lobe peaks described in camshaft degrees.
The smaller the number the tighter the LSA (108 for example), and the larger the number the wider the LSA (118 for example).
You can adjust (widen/tighten) the LSA with adjustable cam gears. But most cam manufacturers have a specific LSA that the cams work best at and this is why you really should degree the cams when installing them, this is to make sure the apropriate amount of LSA is being used. Or at least go to the dyno and dial them in for max power, but if you degree the cams in, you won't have to mess with the cam gears at all, b/c they'll be at what the manufacturer has already determined as the best settings.
LSA dictates valve overlap at TDC and how much intake or exhaust closure delay there is.
Overlap by definition is the amount of time, expressed in crankshaft degrees, that describes the window of time between the the Intake Cam's opening point BTDC and the Exhaust Cam's closing point ATDC (i.e. the brief time when both intake & exhaust valves are partially open simultaneously).
An increase in valve overlap (or tightening the LSA) will usually move the powerband up a bit, but usually at the cost of a little low end torque, but increasing overlap can lead to more peak power provided your supporting mods are up to par.
A decrease in valve overlap (or widening the LSA) will usually move the powerband down making good low end torque at the cost of higher RPM power.
So, if your trying to build a 9500rpm ITR screamer and you've got the 4-1 header, jg edelbrock intake manifold, 65+mm throttle body and you pick cams with a wide LSA (or little overlap) or something like BC3+'s you'll be disappointed with the top end power, or lack there of. So you'd be better suited to go with something more like Skunk2 Stage2, JunIII, Rocket M24, or Toda C's.
But if you're looking to build an all around sort of street car (like most people) you would want to go with moderate duration, higher lift (not crazy high like much over 12-12.5mm) with a wider separation angle, this will produce a wider, smoother torque curve that can still make decent power up top.
To me, its not about PEAK WHP, so much as area under the torque curve. When i tune cars, if i can smooth out the torque curve and eliminate any dips at the expense of a few peak WHP i'll do it. That'll make the car more fun to drive and acelerate faster.
I'd love to have a dyno for a week and do camshaft comparison not changing anything other than the fueling needs (to keep a consistant AFR between the cams, say like 12.8:1 AFR, different cams will need more/less fuel at different rpms) to see what i come up with. The only crappy part would be how long it would take to do the cam swaps and set the apropriate valve lash.

imported_Kingjames1983

ok Zeeman and B

b16a
In no way am I claiming I know anything about this subject I was just told what to get by Intense Motorsports in Innisfil.
Here are the cams I have.

intake exhaust
duration [0.1mm+cl] 239 | 239 | 266° 222 | 239 | 272°
duration [1.0mm+cl] 199 | 199 | 232° 176 | 199 | 233°
valve lift [cl=0] 8.15 | 8.15 | 11.70mm 5.20 | 8.20 | 10.75mm
cam lift 5.45 | 5.45 | 7.35mm 3.55 | 5.45 | 6.85mm
peak angle 106 | 106 | 100° 113 | 107 | 104°
timing [1.0mm+cl] -7/26 | -7/26 | 12/40° 21/-25 | 27/-8 | 40/13° lift at TDC [cl=0] 0.90 | 0.90 | 2.90mm 0.45 | 0.85 | 2.80mm


I am getting retainers and springs installed next week.
I am also going full exhaust later in the spring to ITR with dc header and ITR cat
I have BDL adjustable cam gears
at the same time I am getting the retainers and springs they are shaving the head 30thou
I was wondering, because you 2 seem to have a lot of knowledge on this subject... can you suggest what to run the cam gears at? and if this is a decent set up?
Anything you have to say is greatly appreciated and please dont flame me, I already know both of you have way more experience in this area.


Thanks

LEITNER

millimeters? who's cams? run your cam gears at 0 untill you are on the dyno. make sure they check the piston to valve when they install the cams. cutting the head .033" will bump the compression about a full point....

imported_Kingjames1983

my first posts states there cat cams as for the mm dont know what your trying to ask?
and I know it might sound stupid but I am having the head to help prevent me from going turbo and still get some more power out of her! The reason why I am preventing myself from a turbo is cause there expensive when done right and I wanna start saving for a house and stuff. And yes it I didn't do this I would spend the money on a turbo because I cant hold back when I have the cash in hand!

imported_kmodee

might be a good read for newbies like myself..

http://www.sdsefi.com/techmods.htm

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm

imported_Kingjames1983

I bascially know how they work, I just have no clue what a good set up would consist of and I dont want to spend all that money for someone like zeeman to tune my car and tell me they bascially do **** all!

imported_kmodee

if you check out the first link...the guy talks about ..race setup/street setup and so on...u kinda have read the whole thing to see everything he explained out and different compression and listed some parts...like the guys on forum did as well.

imported_Kingjames1983

I read it... but I just want to see what zeeman and B say because they seem to be very knowledgable and to be honest I keep reading all sorts of different stuff and it would be nice to hear it from someone first hand.
Thanks for those links thou, I did learn a lil!

imported_kmodee

im a newbie to all this to and reading up as much and reading as much on forums...but it always comes down too everyone has a different point of view...but everyone has recommend zeeman...and ive read a few threads with him and ppl getting stuff done..and he really helps out with getting to ur desired goal.

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

when it comes to engine work, I'm outta the recommending setups game. things I haven't personally done on my car, I don't care to 'guess' on other ppl's cars. talk to people, go to meets, go to the race track, meet more people, ask questions, listen actively... but most importantly when you're talking to ppl with a high level of knowledge, and you don't wanna **** them off... make sure you have a good basic grasp on what you're asking. I hate it when ppl ask me stuff and they clearly haven't a ****ing clue, and they spent absolutely NO time doing any reseach. I'm sure zeeman is the same way, and anyone else who's spent endless hours reading, researching, wrenching...

in this topic, I can just offer theory that I've read in engineering texts and picked up from years of wrenching on my own car.

imported_Kingjames1983

well thanks for your honesty

dingus888

this thread blows, dose noone here know about static and dynamic compression..? how stroke and displacement will effect power and cam choice.


like a b16 might not be well suited for rm m24's or jun III's which are more geared to 1.8-2.0l setups

I mean the b16 is kind of overlooked most peopel are buying cams and buidling 1.8-2.0l setups and don't waste their time on 1.6. To me a good b16 cam for street with stock block is ctr or s2s1 or bc3+ with a itr 4-1 or similar cheapo header something along those lines I mean there is no BEST setup for me a 1.6 you wanna go small to moderate on mods ie no huge cams no huge intake manifold (maybe just itr) no big tube header no massive tb.

why are you gonna shave the head that much then your gonna run into piston to valve issues possibly. Thin head gasket and high comp valves is another route shoudl give 1/2 a point

imported_Kingjames1983

but when there shaving the head they explained to me that they will constanly check the clearance. Do you still think I will run into problems?
and 2 answer your first question NOOOOO
thast why I am asking!

imported_chris_v2

very, very well put bruno

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

compression is only 1 part to building an engine. Its not the be all end all of engine builds....unfortunately there are WAY to many people that think compression dictates all.

I've seen moderate compression 1.8L builds make just as much power as 13:1 CR engine builds. With super high compression engines you can be very limited on how much timing you can safely run and piston to valve clearance will be VERY tight with a super high compression engine.

MOST of the cams out there are geared towards 1.8L and 2L setups....hell a lot of the cams out there are way to big for even a 1.8L setup.

Like i said in one of my posts before ITR/CTR cams are a very good choice for a b16 and a lot of the b16s out there are over cammed (so i agree with dingus).

And i'm with bruno. I get annoyed really quickly with stupid PM's about "tell me what i need to build a powerful DOHC VTEC" or when people ask crazy questions about stuff they have absolutely no idea about. I know what i know, from doing it, research and tuning. I'm usually pretty willing to pass on my knowledge/experience with people. But when people ask for my help/experience/opinions and do what they want anyways (which is usually the cheapest route) that gets old real fast and i usually stop wasting my breath with people like that (90% of people on these forums).

LEITNER

ahem....its not compression its tolerances and that give you higher compression when its all said and done....close tolerance breeds high compression...those who are in the know understand that statement

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

for sure.

And quench area is also an important thing to consider when building an engine. Same with port shape, combustion chamber shape/size and valve seat angles.

LEITNER

quench/squish or piston to head is a tolerance...there are so many things involved...i used to have a huge check list of things that need to be done during a performance build. valve to valve is another tolerance that should be checked, no less than .040" "clicking clearance"....rocker to retainer clearance or how about the correct valve spring pressures open and closed? people dont realize that there are so many things that need to be done during a build...thats why good shops charge so much for an engine, it takes a long time to correctly build an engine.

oh yeah, cams are important too.

VTEC_Thunder

Ok, I'm a pretty green honda tuner (only owned my first honda for over a year now).

I'm a mechanical engineering technologist and I know alot about engines and all that stuff...been working/modding cars for many years now.

I don't know that much about tuning hondas. But i'm a fast learner.

So zeeman (and anyone else who knows) I'm confused about some of your statements about cams.

Some of what you said contracdicts other things you have said.

At one point you say "stage 2/3/4 cams are not worth it unless you go big" then you say skunk2 stage 2 cams are a great start at making good power on a stock engine (with springs/retainers of course).

So please explain to me:

What is the difference in the cam stages and are the stages different from one brand to another? (like is a skunk2 stage 2 cam the same as another brands stage 1 cam (just as an example))?

I am planning on doing header/high-flow cat, cams/retainers/springs/larger tb and or intake mani (no i didn't say "itb") on my stock b16a2 sometime in the next year or two (my goal is 180whp).

What cams would you recomend?


Thanks.





OH NOOOOS......I SAID "ITB"!!!!!!!



Kmodee: your sig is delicious!

LEITNER

my close friend made 178whp on his b16a, it had a ported head, 62mm tb, balanced bottom end and then all the bolt ons i/e/h etc. he ran a 14.0 at 99mph. oh yeah....it used type r cams and valve train. was a little monster of a engine.