motti

More people are injured and killed by traffic accidents than by crime.

Over 95% of all traffic accidents are the result of deliberately errant driving behaviour and not mechanical breakdown. That IS a crime.

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

LOUD EXHAUSTS KILL!!

konfusious saii... "j00 go to jail... bat boii"

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

I know for a fact, Alex's old 'green shade' foglights killed 8 people that year alone. Thank GOD that officer stopped his rampage when he did, else who knows what the body count would have been!

EDIT!! I'm sorry... now I'm just making fun of something you obviously believe in. sorry...

the point I'm trying to get across should be clear though. As for your stats... to be honest I don't believe your stats though. I hear too many stats... WAY too many. I hear, HIV is the #1 killer... then I hear guns are the #1 killer... then I hear drunk driving is the #1 killer, then I hear smoking is the #1 killer. Sorry, I just don't believe in THOSE kinds of statistics anymore. I think you should check the figures yourself before making definitive statements like that.

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

oh, and d0pEy... that guy was straight serial killa, his 'extremely' low CRX wiped out entire family trees at a time before his car was fortunately impounded by the York region police at a MOST unlikely spot... leaving the Markham Fairgrounds after... whowouldathunkit!!! A CAR SHOW (yes, DKN5) Thank heavens they got that guy off the streets!! Poor guy, we haven't heard from him in over 2 years now since his car was impounded. Prolly fed up of the bullsh!t, he prolly turned to selling crack and pimping since the cops don't seem the hassle you then.

motti

First off, the vast majority of traffic tickets are not handed out for loud exhausts.

Second, overly loud exhausts (and stereos) make it a lot harder for the driver to get advance warning of approaching emergency vehicles. That isa direct drivin safety issue.

Third, loud exhausts are at least a quality of life and even a health issue. Traffic noise levels are already known to have negative effect on mental health, stress levels, and hearing, and that's with most traffic running ordinary "quiet-level" exhausts. And you want to add to it by running unreasonably loud exhausts for no good reason?

Your desire to try and eke out an extra 3 or 5 horsepower does not justify the deletrious affects on everyone else around you. There is no justifiable excuse for self-indulgent look-at-me louts to further add to the noise pollution that is already an overwhelming part of urban life, whether it be from overly-loud exhausts or from overly-loud stereo systems.

imported_Moe_Mentum

Wow this thread got out of hand quick. motorcycles, and most V8 trucks are much louder then any exhaust I have put on my car, so why don't we try to get rid of those first. Cops pulling people over for exhausts is ridiculous. Ok If the exhaust has a huge hole in it or if its causing avalanches then fine, by all means take her off the road. But as soon as cops see a nice chrome tip, they start to think "Oh! Illegal exhaust"

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

you are right... cuz having your house broken into is not at all a disturbance to your mental well being, and all the stuff that's gone is a-ok... cuz INSURANCE will pay for it. I recently (beg. of Jan) had a $1500 gold ring stolen from my bathroom... along with a $700 chain... and most of my jackets, sunglasses, PS2, even my prescription glasses, Louis Vuitton silver inital belt (that's a $500 belt). All in all, $5500+ worth of stuff. I haven't really been sleeping well since then, like I go to sleep around 3, and get up @ 7:30 for work. I used to sleep just fine before even knowing all the killa exhausts were out there. lol Anyways... insurance shelled out under $3K for my losses.

You are right, loud exhauts are disturbing... here is my STOCK exhaust which I still use.



So you see I'm not one of those clowns with attention getting engine noises. What I'm arguing is that chasing down motorists should NOT take priority over REAL crime. I can live with a couple of ricers in town or a couple of open header harleys. What I CAN'T live with is knowing that someone can enter my house at will and maybe 1 in 100 times he does it... he may get asked a couple of questions by the police.

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

sorry but the "don't look at me, look at HIM" attitude doesn't fly. IF IN FACT, there is a dB level prescribed in the HTA, then anyone exceeding the dB level as perscribed is equally guilty. you can't be a lil bit guilty, but the harley rider is 'more' guilty.

and motti, one more thing... I'm not arguing against the police. I think they do what they have to to survive under the current legislative environment. what I'd like to see is a more favourable environment from the top down... from the legislature to the foot patrol. Now the reward system in place forces MEASURABLE success, such as the value of tickets handed out or whatever. In fact, what needs to happen is the focus should shift to a more "safe community" kinda focus. IMO... police chiefs should be elected. and the police funding should be restructured.

motti

Statistics Canada and Transport Canada for year 2003:

Death rate by homicide - 1.77 per 100,000 population

Death rate by traffic accident - 8.8 per 100,000

1/2 of all traffic fatalities involve persons other than the driver.

These are based on pure counts of events with no interpretation needed.


You make fun of green lights, whatever, but you clearly do not understand what driving is all about.

Driving is about predictable behaviour, and predictable responses to events. The reason certain colours of lighting are reserved for certain types of vehicles is to reinforce the automatic reflex conditioning that is necessary to ensure correct automatic responses by drivers.

Red lights on front - emergency vehicles, pull right and stop.

Red lights on back - tail and braking.

Blue lights - snow removal, slow and be prepared for extra wide vehicle, blowing snow, and snow ridges in the road.

Green - volunteer fire department on the way to a fire call - give way if possible.

All these are or should be conditioned responses that you do without thinking twice about it. There shouldn't have to be any pause on that conditioned response while you try to figure out whether that really is an ambulance or snow removal vehicle or just some "kid" trying to be "different".

So yeah, maybe that cop didn't save 8 lives by ticketing your buddy, but he did act to help maintain the integrity of the lighting colour-code that helps shape our conditioned responses that in future may well save lives in another circumstance.

motti

You don't get it. There will still be crime even if we take all of the traffic cops and move them strictly to "crime" control. There is no way to predict when a specific person will go out to commit a specific crime, so there is also no way to stop all crime.

With respect to break-ins, there is no way to compel everyone to secure their own homes against all possible manner of break-ins. There is also no practical possibility of stationing someone to watch each and every home against break-in attempts.

In the meantime, you seem to imply that until there is no other crime, that lower level traffic offences should be ignored. Try telling that to some mother who just had her kid run down in the street by a speeding driver.

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

well I said 'green shade' cuz they were actually regular white foglights, but somehow at some angles the glare was a wierd greenish tinge.

motti, I know you can justify almost any law or ticket or whatever... yes, i know the licenseplace in the windshield can go and cut heads off LOL... I know a loud stereo is disturbing, I know all these things (that's why I don't have any of these ghay mods... stock stereo, license plate where it should be, and stock exahust)... the point is however, that highschool kids are out snorting coke these days cuz it's easier to find coke cuz the cops keep their eyes peeled for shiny bits under the car instead of shady figures at the school playground. hahaha

again, those stats are meaningless. how many ppl have cars... and how many ppl have guns?? therefore OF COURSE more ppl are gonne die in accidents... that's cuz EVERYONE DRIVES A CAR... yet not everyone packs heat. Now... those stats WOULD be meaningful, if in fact everyone in Canada who owned a car also owned a firearm. THEN we could compare the two raw statistics. They taught me that @ skhoul. lol

imported_GoldBadge

You guys know you've been arguing over this for 5 days? 4 pages of arguement, that's impressive.

motti

The Harley driver is just as guilty if he has gutted his exhaust, and you'd be surprised just how many get ticketed for doing just that.

Big trucks and buses are another story. Transport Canada does specify DB levels that manufacturers must meet, and the DB levels for heavy vehicles are higher than that permitted for light passenger vehicles. That's simply recognition of the fact that it takes more power to move a heavy vehicle, and that noise levels will as a result be higher at times to do that.

Whether you realize it or not, people do associate driving behaviour with their perception of a "safe" community. In Peel region, the number one "crime" concern of residents in a recent poll was aggressive and speeding drivers. Not break-ins. Not murder. Aggressive and speeding drivers are the one thing that hits most people right where they live day in and day out. Also, the aggressive drivers noticed most frequently, based on complaints about other people's driving, are those with loud exhausts. And that is why they get targeted. .

motti

Actually, I said murder stats. I didn't say death by firearm.

Firearms accounted for only 161 out of 548 murders in 2003.

The rest were by stabbing, beating, strangulation, arson, and "27 by means uniknown".

Last I heard, just about everyone has access to a butcher knife, baseball bat, or their bare hands. At least that's what they taught me in school.

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

what's the kid doing playing in the street? street = cars... sidewalk = pedestrians. I don't drive on the sidewalk, you don't walk on the street, agreed? hahaha of course I'm joking point taken, I guess my view is skewed of course cuz of the recent break-in. as for lower level offenses, no... that's NOT what I'm saying. I actually would like to see more tickets being given to ppl who seem to think it's okay to park anywhere as long as they put their hazards on Cuz ppl like that cause way more road rage than they imagine. But you can't just say... well we can't prevent break-ins and murders cuz we don't have a crystal ball... so we'll let those slide... but SPEEDING!!! well, "I know a good spot right before Dougall Ave turns into the 401... ppl always accelerate down that stretch almost to hwy speed, but we secretly know it's still a 50 zone. MUAHAHAHAHA.... let's go set up shop there and make our monthly quota." And yeah, I agree with you if you see someone being an idiot, speeding, etc... go ahead pull him over, give him what he's got coming. I'm not worried, in fact I'm ticket free for 3 years come May. Just don't FOCUS your time on it and have all these mad blitzes.

The other question I had... ok obviously personally I'm all about safety... and I always buckle up or strap in. but my question is, if ppl CHOOSE not to wear seatbelts... why don't you let them? Like you said, Darwin law Let them end themselves. Them mashing their windsheild with their face doesn't affect me or you. Only thing I can think of would be like... health care costs I guess, but IMO they should be denied coverage if they don't have seatbelt rash.

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

27 means unknown??? damn, you guys need to set your coroner up with sum cable or satellite, have them watch CSI or something. I can't imagine not knowing why a corpse is in front of me. haha

ohh that one's obvious, he's got a hole in him... chalk it up to firearm... ummm this one's got a curb smile... must be a gang beating... this one... ummmm dunno... beats me... must be the mysterious "means unknown" LOL

as for your comment that eveyone has access to muder weapons... that's true, but how often do you wield such things in a context that would make them a weapon. ppl handle cars, which are always a weapon, every day, day in and day out for hours each day in traffic. And the car is always capable of causing injury. now a knife... how often do you stand face to face with someone with a butcher knife in hand waiting to attack? the stats still have no meaning to me. sorry... I'm not trying to be stubborn, just wanna SEE the truth.

as for community safety... I see your point. however, I personally find minivan and SUV drivers WAY more dangerous than drivers of 'performance' cars. I don't remember the last time I seen a Corvette in the ditch, but I can recall at least a dozen minivans and SUVs in the ditch. When was the last time you went out to a call and found an Acura Integra Type R in the ditch? How about a minivan/SUV? Not only that, they're pushing a mighty 3 ton weapon some of those bigger SUVs... and I'm pushing a lil Civic that barely tips the 1 ton mark. So my 'weapon' < soccer mom's 'weapon'. hahaha I wouldn't fawk with no soccer momz y0

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

GoldBadge, I think motti is intelligent and offers good arguments. This I enjoy... if I am to change my views, this is where it'll happen. He shows his argument w/o much bias and w/o forcing his views on me. This is why I continue to 'argue'... or rather DEBATE. Otherwise, I'd just go post somewhere else and let him think he won

SiR JP

This is a great thread going here, folks. I really like the civilized debate (so rare!) between Motti and Bruno.

motti

Actually, most homicides, and by that I refer to any of manslaughter, unintended and premediated murder, involve people who are either intimates, friends or coworkers, and they happen most often in the residence or place of work. That means you are likely within easy range of kitchen knives, baseball bats, clubs, bare hands, etc when an argument breaks out. Or, in the case of someone who has premeditated the killing, there is plenty of opportunity to obtain a weapon of any sort, even just a rock on a camping trip, and do the deed. You won't even know it's coming until it's already in motion.

About minivans and Corvettes, yes, there are more fools driving around in minivans than there are Corvettes, and you will see more minivans in the ditch than Corvettes.

But Canadian corvette sales only account for maybe 2,500 units total a year. Combined minivan and SUV sales in Canada 10 times that each and every month of the year, or around 300,000 total per year.

Unlike Corvettes, minivans and SUVs are more likely to be daily drivers, being driven throughout the year good and bad weather alike. Corvettes tend to be sunshine queens. Corvettes, new or used, also tend to be beyond the financial means of many drivers, most particularly the inexperienced teen drivers who are also the most prone to getting in accidents.

Given all that, a Corvette in a ditch should be a very rare thing indeed.

Also, given that minivans/SUVs are so numerous, I would expect to see more of them in the ditches. Next time you're out, count how many of them you see compared to other vehicles.

There is very little difference in driving abilities between a typical soccer mom in a minivan and a young male in a "performance" car. What is different is the cockiness and over-confidence factor. A lot of young drivers, especially the young guys, think themselves to be significantly better drivers than what they really are. Then they make their driving decisions with that perceived skill factor in mind - they think they're so good that they can pull off that "performance" maneuver that other drivers, especially soccer moms with children in the car, would dismiss as being too stupid to try.

And this notion of "performance" cars? A lot of those "owner-modffied" "performance" cars out there are a joke. Cut-down springs, 40-series tires, and a loud muffler do not a performance car make. What they do make is an obnoxious car that is intractible on any but the smoothest roads.

In any case, the real life accident stats show that young male teens are several times more likely to get into collisions than are those soccer moms. It's hard to argue with real life experience.

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

I agree with all that... the corvette was just an example, clearly one with not much thought... sorry
I also agree with most owner-modified cars being ghay. It's a shame really. Not so much the cut down springs, but the one bolt seats by elistian, the tom's motorsports $99 coilover special, the ebay strut bars... gawd... yeah, it's a shame. Now that I think about it... fack'em - import enthusiasts, save for about 10% of us... are complete 'tards. And I'm not being sarcastic... before I was thinking of the sport I know and love... but now I see it for what it is. There are very few ppl like me who'll have a stock engine for 6 years and build the susp/chassis/brakes for all that time to be worthy of a 200hp powerplant (which is the current project, after 6 years of other work).

Now with all this agreement and understanding... I forgot what we were debating... oh yeah... the cruizer in goneine60minutes' trunk LOL

one more question... why the front plate?? QC and Michigan don't have front plates, why does Ontario have to be gay about it??