guru404

Hello all,

This cry for help is a confirmation of my utmost stupidity and a great example of how things can go wrong when you don't pay attention. I did EVERYTHING I possibly could against the book and I am the only person to blame for that, being an impulsive buyer and rushed by certain deadlines. I will never forgive myself for that.

Just a couple of days ago I bought a 98 Honda Civic EX from a person who posted on Trader.ca. I was in a desperate need of a good Civic NOW (which I've been searching for, for the last 4 weeks) and, I guess, I was blindfolded by the ad that described the car very nicely (low mileage, loaded, no scratches, one owner, etc.). So I went to check it out. Talked to the guy who introduced himself and said all kinds of nice things about the vehicle, showed me the UVIP, emission test, blah blah blah. I checked body of the vehicle which looked very nice. I checked the interior which also looked very clean and being taken good care of. Everything worked (power mirrors, power lock, power windows, stereo with the CD changer, etc.). I thought I found my dream car. The guy opened the trunk, showed me the spare tire, the CD changer, etc. (again, everything looked very clean).

I'm not a mechanic and have a very vague understanding of what's under the hood of a Honda and what condition this stuff should be in. The guy assured me that he had the t-belt and water pump replaced and also that he replaced the clutch and the brakes and bought new tires several months ago (spending in total about $1000). Briefly showed me some papers (receipts, etc.) - which I (stupid, stupid!!!) didn't really look at in a great detail, having trusted him and again, being deceived by the appearance of the car.

To cut a long story short, I purchased the vehicle, paying cash. He provided Safety certificate, emission test results, UVIP, application to transfer and I registered this in my name.

Later on the same day - I was going through the papers scrutinizing every single letter and - OH MY GOD!!! Closer inspection showed that the mileage recorded on UVIP papers was manually corrected and what appeared to be "1" was replaced by "0". I was devastated to find out that I actually overpaid for a car that had about 100,000 km more on the odometer which was simply rolled back. One thing lead to another - and my phone call to this guy at the end confirmed my fears. He was not the original owner of the car (basically, acted as a dealer for somebody else). He claims that he didn't know about the mileage problem (but, of course, that's a bunch of BS) and bought this car from original owner but couldn't register this in his own name because of high insurance and some other BS like that - so he had to sell it immediately. We had a rather long over the phone, during which he tried to sell me some more BS and at the end I demanded that he paid me back about $1000 of the price I paid, as a compensation for much higher mileage and other things originally claimed to be replaced but not actually replaced, threatening him to report the fraud and cancel the contract based on this fact.

I also looked under the hood. I have no experience driving Hondas (or used Japanese cars, for that matter), being a new driver in Ontario. But even my closer inspection makes me horrified - the signs of rust under the hood make me think that the car is actually in much worse condition than originally declared, although for now it seems to drive OK.

The guy asked for more time and promised to pay in a couple of days - I'm thinking I might even try to return this car altogether, if that works out (although I already lost some money paying tax on the transaction, plus other fees). It might be hard, because I (I hate myself for that!) actually concluded the deal, but I'll try.

I only have the guy's phone number. I guess that may be enough for finding him, if needed. I don't know if I can return the car altogether, but at least I'll try to get as much money back as possible.

My question to you is - can you recommend me a good garage in Toronto area (official or unofficial - doesn't matter, as long as the people can diagnose Honda problems), where I can take this vehicle (soon, preferrably today or tomorrow) for a good diagnostic check-up to find out what else may be wrong with it and to be able to estimate what the (possible) repairs/replacements would cost me. If you have several suggestions - I'd appreciate a cheaper option, because by buying this car I already suffered a financial hit of a couple of thousand dollars.

Having read about cases like that I learned my lesson the hard way. Now I have to do everything possible to try to remedy the situation.

HELP ME, PLEASE!

imported2nv

first things first if he did commit a odometer fraud then that is a breach of contract and you are intitled to all your losses back you may have to take it to small claims court to get your money back however you will get it back aslong as you can prove your losses dont bother getting the car checked out just return it and get rembursed for your losses like transfer fee's taxes and so forth.
he will be looking at a criminal charge if you are correct about the km's being changed.
p.s. i am a ex honda tech pm me if you wish to have the car looked at for a cheap price.
there is one more route you can take.bring the car to Honda and pay for a saftey and if anything shows to be in poor cond. meaning not able to pass safety then you can also get the person who wrote the safety in alot of trouble.

imported_Green_Goblin

Wow...that sucks bro...but dont blame yourself..cuz u did what most ppl would. I mean u even got reciepts which I didnt. But newayz...

Listen...dont give this dude time, he is not going to give you your money. I believe there is a law that states that you can return the car in a certain number of days right after u buy it if it turns out to be a lemon or the deal is bad.

The seller is simply buying himself sometime to maybe change his phone number anddd void the "returns law". Once youve passed the certain number of dayz you've got nothing. Phone conversations that show up on your bill is the only proof...and it means nothing. I hope you guyz signed some papers.

I dont really know of any Garages that are dependable, but Zeeman and Scott Newman who are two amazing mechanics on this form are both very knowledgeable and honest. I dono if zeeman has the tools to jack up your car high but scotts work on my car and hez really good at spotting out problems. He cant write any legal receipts up or stuff...so hmmm...I guess it would defeat the purpose. When you deal with such a big amount make sure you get EVERYTHING on paper. I say, go to a honda dealer n ask him to check if you want the reciept to show a big fixing price. OR wait a tiny bit longer and someone will come along suggestion you a good shop.

I feel ur pain bro, just dont put anything off, get everything on paper...
Get the mans address...tell him u want to buy something off him...n then do a no show when he gives u his address.

Good luck man, hope you get your money

imported_Team Rukus

k I am an ex honda tech aswell.
I specialize in autobody.
So i can tell you if the car has been painted over, in an accident, any vin swaps etc... basically everything that you need to prove the milage is original or not.

That being said. The number one way to prove that this car is not what it is (km wise) is to take it to Honda. Have them do a complete checkup on the cars background thru things like warranty services to oil changes any and every one of them that as done thru Honda. This service might cost you some money but its the only way.

Another thing is that assuming the car has 180 thousand km realistically you should have already known there was no need to change the timing belt or the waterpump if it was 80k km. Yes there are people that do their maintanence ahead of time but chances are they wont especially if they are selling the car.

What you also have to understand is that this car is afterall a Honda and a Civic at that. Its the number one seller for Honda and they are very reliable. If the motor does end up having a higher milage you dont really have to worry about it too much because these motors if maintained well can run you easily 400 thousand km like it was nothing.

You do have the right to file a report and get the entire amount you paid him back within I believe 9 days. IMO I would get it checked out at a dealership and have them make a statement regarding actual milage. It will also help if you can get invoices of things that where done where the milage was recorded.

Remember what you did read could be a typo aswell. I have personally experienced it. I owned a 2003 honda accord and 6 months after ownership I went in for my third oil change (because I put alot of km's on my car) and I had the service rep tell me to do a type C service (which was basically the highest service you can do) and doesnt come around till you have about 106k km on it. The car only had 16 thousand km on it. It was a mistake that was made by the person entering the number in on a previous oil change. I had them immediately change the records and print out two invoices 1 saying there was a mistake made and corrected to validate my old invoice and one with the new oil change added and proper km put on.

guru404

I used the CarFax to check background. It shows clear history (no accidents, no reported thefts, etc.) but the last km recorded in October 2004 is 270,000 km. I'm ready to kill myself. The UVIP showed 70,000 (after being manually corrected, as I said).

It's not just the mileage problem I'm concerned about - I realize Honda Civics are reliable. I'm concerned that, first of all, this mileage accumulated over 8 years (approx. 37,500 km. per year - that's high!) and that means the car was used A LOT! Second - I'm afraid that mileage may be just the tip of an iceberg and that the car may have other problems (given the lies I've been given about mileage and onwership). What scares me the most is that the car may be even stolen, for that matter (although I do believe that CarFax or UVIP should show that and the Ministry of Transportation would not register the car if it's reported stolen - I hope I'm correct on that one...)

Anyway, I'm trying to get all of my money back. The crappiest thing is that the actual amount that I put on was less than what I paid, so, technically there is no proof that I purchased it for this price, although the guy doesn't know that - he just gave me blank signed papers and I put the rest on them myself. So I told him I put the actual price on all papers where his signature is (or the signature of whoever the owner is) but haven't actually registered the car because officially I have 6 days from the day of purchase - and he seemed to have bought that...

Thank you all for your replies! I'll see how this turns out and, most probably, I'm gonna need a new car soon...

You are all great.

guru404

Based on my recent discussion with the SoB, it's gonna be a battle... It does look like he's just buying time and, surprisingly, doesn't care (or is just bluffing).

Any of you know if things like that may be reported to police? Or will they just laugh at me there?

imported_mugenpowered

Sorry to hear about your situation, that really sucks.
But as for the police, they will just tell you that it is a civil matter and that they can't do anything to get your money back. Definitely pursue it though, take it to court if you have to.

HamiltonsIsuzu

small claims court.

DumbasSi

So does the car run and drive ok? How do you know it has been rebuilt/stolen/whatever?

You should have bought my car when it was for sale.

imported_hdave

small claims court

file a police report first though

preludeking

I'd get OMVIC involved on this one. Sounds like the guy was a curbsider, and they will be able to help you out.

OMVIC is set up for protection against dealers, however in this case i think think they will be able to help you out as he was selling a car not in his name.

preludeking

Here is some more info...

Ontario Motor Vehicle Industry Council
www.omvic.on.ca

Anti-curbsiding enforcement has been largely over looked throughout the history of the Motor Vehicle Dealers Act. Recognizing that this is an issue that has gone unaddressed for many years now, OMVIC has been trying to play catch-up. OMVIC's anti-curbsiding campaign has pursued a few methods of attack including:

* Vigorous enforcement and prosecution
* Consumer awareness

VIGOROUS ENFORCEMENT:

Over the course of 1997 and 1998, OMVICs investigators have laid an unprecedented number of charges against curbsiders - some 500 charges.

Given the historical lack of enforcement however, enforcement alone will not be sufficient to significantly reduce curbsiding. Trying to stamp out curbsiding by means of prosecution alone would be like trying to stamp out an ant colony one at a time!

OMVIC intends to continue to prosecute offenders while exploring other means of protecting consumers and dealers from curbsiding.

CONSUMER AWARENESS:

Curbsiders are able to flourish because too many consumers believe that they are safer dealing privately. Or else they think that they are much more likely to get a better deal through the classifieds.

The risks of buying are not well understood. The crime is considered "victimless" and the term "curbsider" is still not widely known. Increased consumer awareness of the risks of dealing privately and the need to help consumers to recognize curbsiders for the villains they really are will continue.

There is a hotline where people can provide curbisider information,
1-888-NO-CURBS.

imported_Cablerat

You be screwed.. You may be able to claim your money back EVENTUALLY, but you are looking at a **** load of time and energy into this.

Like Preludeking said, first speak with OMVIC and see what they can do for you. Aside from that, small claims court is useless.

You'll be in there waiting for months, at which point the guy will not show up, you'll get an order stating he owes your $$$ dollars.. But guess what, how you gonna get it? Those orders are as good as the paper their written on.. There's no real form of enforcement. You can try to garnish his bank account, if you know what bank he banks at. The courts will not look that up for you. By the way, at that point you'll have invested atleast $600 in court fees.

guru404

Exactly! I know that - that's why I'm not even thinking of starting all this.

I have no proof of paying him this amount anyway, because I paid cash.

Even if the wait times are not as long as you've stated - misrepresentation at the time a contract is concluded means the court would (potentially) rule on contract rescission which would mean each party would be returned to the position it had before the contract was concluded - in other words the guy would have his car and I would have my money. Given the fact that the amount I'd get back would still be less than the car is worth (plus, as noticed before - all the energy, time and money invested).

OMVIC can do nothing with what I have - and I only have the guy's phone number (not even real name, address, or whatever).

So, I'm just stuck with this and that's the fact. At least I have SOMETHING now which is supposed to last for at least the next year. I have accepted that I lost about a half of what I paid for that car and I'm gonna live with it for the next year or so, after which I'll just trade it in for another one - this time, with the dealership.

imported_Cablerat

Yeah, I hear ya.

Don't worry too much about it, **** like this build's character.. Now you know what needs to be done in the future and you'll be sure that this'll never happen again.

imported_Team Rukus

dealerships wont take cars in with high kilometers or tampered odometer readings.

kwyze

always pay with a certified cheque, never anything else. so you have evidence of paying him, and make sure it's their name and not someone elses, because the other party can just say "he paid that money to someone, but it wasn't me". always make sure to cover your ***.

imported_Bruce Fee

and if all that fails.. gun violence!

good luck man.

imported_Fug

imported_mikepasini

did u not get the registration information before you transferred it over to your name? usually that has the address information on that green slip. if you want you should get his address and then we could get a sign up of like 40 of us and we can all go down there in our civics and surround his property and protest... i would do that any day... let me know...

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