ADR3NLYN_EK

Ok im a bit concerned driving this summer. My car is almost 3" low and i heard of people's cars getting towed. So whats the rules on lowering a car? I heard the cop asks you to turn your wheels all the way correct? Now, does there have to be a certain amount of space between the top of the tire and the fender? Or is it ok as long as you can turn your wheels all the way without rubbing?

Because when i turn my wheels all the way i don't rub, however there is no space to fit your index finger in between. Is that too low? Can i get towed for that? If not, can i get a ticket for that? Im talking in general, what most cops would do...i know there is always those hardcore ****** just looking for blood...

Also, i heard if you tell the cop that you can raise the car ON THE SPOT, then he/she won't tow you or give you a ticket, is this true? Because i have coils and can raise my car within 30 minutes...also, do they check the back wheels and is there anything else i need to know on rules and laws of car lowering, and any suggestions on what to say to a cop in this situation?

thanx for your help guys...

El_LoCo

"I can raise my car ON THE SPOT"

who told u that?? IMO if u had coilover sleves, the cop would see away to book u for improper suspension (not safe!) same as if u had cut ur springs. so i wouldn't show him anything.
I got pulled over for too low the officer asked me to turn the wheel all they way he has to be able to fit 2 fingers all around the fender ( i failed this test) i apologized to him for not be aware of this law and promised him to have a mechanic fix the situation. he said it was cool, but if he saw the car lowered again i would get it towed and have to pay to get it back, also pay for it to get re-certified by a government shop.

Cynikal.Mindset

its basically the "rule of thumb" they gotta be able to fit a finger atleast between the tire and the fender...you say u dont rub but there is no space inbetween which means when or if you hit a bump at full lock its gonna rub.

and on the spot means by air ride or hydraulics...coilovers are hardly on the spot and its up to the cops discretion if he wants to take your lil ignorance act.

I've had friends that have been towed and then one of them got smart and had 17's in the rear and 16's in the front, and the next time he was pulled over it didnt rub anc he told the cop why and he was rather impressed...so its all luck of the draw

DaRizzla

Yep minimum a finger atleast i had this test happen to me and passed. luckily i didnt lower my car that low on the day i got pulled over, was planning to go lower tho like tucking the tire in. But never had a chance to do it. Officer then tells me that luckily i passed the test cus he had a tow truck waiting to tow my car. i then appologized and he left me off. Btw Officer waited for me till i got out of a coffe shop parking lot then pulled me over he was hiding in the corner he then sees me exit and bam! cherries and told me to pull over

cibs

there has to be something more concrete in the law... cuz i mean really.. what if you have a fat cop pull u over who has a 2 inch wide finger vs a skinny cop who has a 3/4 inch finger.... too subjective...


best idea would be to do some research..

1niceSi

Getting your plates taken away and having your car towed is a sham. The only people who should have the authority for this are MTO officials.

Police officers aren't experts in vehicle safety procedures/specifications.

DaRizzla

LOL Fat POPO thats true haha

imported_gatherer

the HTA states that your car is too low only when with wheels pointed straight the body of the car is touching the tires.

I forget what section but it might be wise to get a copy of the HTA and highlight and book mark those sections. this 2 finger rule is pure crap. there is no such rule in the HTA.....

Nova_Dust

I can fit 4 fingers, I think I am way too high LOL

BOND007

2 fingure rule is crap// their are many performance vehicles stock that cannot fit that in the wheel well........

ADR3NLYN_EK

really? i cant find that anywhere in the HTA???

motti

The two finger "rule" is just an ad hoc measure. It's not enshrined in law. The alternative ad hoc measure is to just look at the clearance and say "gee that looks too close". Another is to look for scrapes and cuts on the top or sidewalls of the tire, scrapes and cuts that suggest impact with bodywork or frame. Either is enough to take a car off the road if in the judgement of the cop the car does not have enough clearance because of oversize tires and/or rims.

Two fingers is not a lot of room, especially once you take into account additional space that may be consumed by tire flex and suspension movement. Some people try to compensate by slowing to an almost stop on encountering curb cuts at driveway or mall entrances, but if you have to do that just to get on and off the road, your car is too low to be considered roadworthy.

There is also another much more precise measure that is in effect. No part of your car's body/frame/steering/other mechanical pieces can sit lower than the lower edge of your rim. If your car can't ride on its bare rims without something scraping the ground, the car is too low. This includes the air dams and skirts on the body kits that some of you are putting on your cars.

Cynikal.Mindset

word up mr. motti!

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

motti, do you know the section of the HTA where this is stated?

As for the curbs and speed bumps, not all of us drive crown vics and impalas... so excuse me for not wanting to bash my car. But even my stock winter beater I slow right down and crawl up driveways and so on. The winter beater is all stock... does that mean it's not roadworthy??

imported_gatherer

taken from the sticky in the forum on useful HTA notes....

I have confirmed that teh laws quoted there are still uptodate with the HTA as found on ontario's website...

Vehicle Too Low - The FIRST thing you should do is ask the officer to present proof that he holds a Critical Inspection Certificate before allowing him to carry out any inspection for critical defects on your vehicle - this is stated in Section 1 of the Regulations for the HTA.

Your car will be towed if it is deemed critically defective. The HTA regulation pertaining to suspension and impoundment of vehicles states that the officer can only tow your car away for being too low IF AND ONLY IF your car, while in a stopped position with wheels straight, is touching any part of the vehicle (as stated in regulation 512/97). Anything pertaining to suspension and impoundment of vehicles must fall under section 82.1 of the HTA.

The violation you are making if true, is contrary to this section in the HTA:

84. (1) No person shall drive or operate or permit the driving or operation upon a highway of a vehicle, a street car or vehicles that in combination are in such a dangerous or unsafe condition as to endanger any person. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 84.

Vehicle with critical defect deemed unsafe

(1.1) If a commercial motor vehicle or trailer has one or more critical defect, as prescribed by regulation, it shall be deemed to be in such a dangerous or unsafe condition as to endanger any person. 1997, c. 12, s. 11.


ONTARIO REGULATION 512/97:
SUSPENSION AND IMPOUNDMENT OF COMMERCIAL MOTOR VEHICLES
FOR CRITICAL DEFECTS UNDER SECTION 82.1 OF THE ACT

Section 1:
A police officer or officer appointed for carrying out the provisions of this Act must hold a Critical Inspection Certificate issued by the Registrar in order to carry out inspections under section 82.1 of the Act. O. Reg. 512/97, s. 1.

Section 11:
(2) A commercial motor vehicle or trailer has a critical defect for the purposes of section 82.1 of the Act if one or more of the following defects is present on four or more of its tires:

4. A tire,

i. is contacting a vehicle component, other than a tire, with the vehicle stopped in the straight ahead position,
ii. is void of air pressure or has an air leak that is audible or tangible, or
iii. is marked "not for highway use" or "farm use only" or bears the letters "SL", "NHS", "K", "SS", "AT", "DH", "VA" or "TG" as part of the tire designation or on any other location on the tire. O. Reg. 512/97, s. 11.

Officer does not need a Critical Inspection Certificate to perform the below test:

Some of our cars are low in a manner where the vehicle DOES cover a little part of the tire, but your tires are not touching any part of the vehicle when stopped and wheels straight. If this is the case, the officer will ask you to turn your wheel all the way in one direction. If your tires do touch the vehicle (i.e. the fender) when turned, it is considered too low but the officer cannot tow your car away on this because it is not considered CRITICALLY DEFECTIVE. The only thing the officer can do is issue an order for you to bring your vehicle to compliance. You must then submit the vehicle for further inspection after you have brought it to compliance, or show evidence that you have done so - this is to the discretion of the officer.

Regulations (Section 70 of the HTA)

Offence
(3) No person shall operate or permit to be operated upon a highway a vehicle that is,

(a) fitted with a tire that does not conform with the standards and specifications prescribed in the regulations; or
(b) fitted with tires that are installed in a manner, in a place or in a combination that does not conform with the specifications prescribed in the regulations.


ONTARIO REGULATION 625:
TIRE STANDARDS AND SPECIFICATIONS

5. A tire fitted on a vehicle shall not,

(a) be of a smaller size than the vehicle manufacturer's specified minimum size; or
(b) contact any vehicle component so as to affect the safe operation of the vehicle. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 625, s. 5.


Definitions (side note: below is the guidelines pertaining to section 82 of the HTA)

82.1 (1) In this section,

"commercial motor vehicle" has the same meaning as in subsection 16 (1); ("véhicule utilitaire") "operator" means,

(a) the person directly or indirectly responsible for the operation of a commercial motor vehicle, including the conduct of the driver of, and the carriage of goods or passengers, if any, in, the commercial motor vehicle or combination of vehicles, and

(b) in the absence of evidence to the contrary, where no CVOR certificate, as defined in subsection 16 (1), or lease or contract applicable to a commercial motor vehicle, is produced, the holder of the plate portion of the permit for the commercial motor vehicle; ("utilisateur")
"owner" means the person whose name appears on the certificate of registration for the vehicle, and, where the certificate of registration for the vehicle consists of a vehicle portion and plate portion, means the person whose name appears on the vehicle portion; ("propriétaire")
"permit" means the permit issued under subsection 7 (7). ("certificat d'immatriculation")

Commercial motor vehicles ordered to stop for inspection

(2) In exercising his or her powers under section 82, a police officer or officer appointed for carrying out the provisions of this Act may, at any time, require the driver of a commercial motor vehicle being driven on a highway to stop for inspection and the driver of the vehicle, when signalled or requested to stop by the officer, who is readily identifiable as such, shall immediately come to a safe stop.

Direction to move vehicle to another location

(3) A police officer or officer appointed for carrying out the provisions of this Act may, at any time before, during or after inspecting a commercial motor vehicle or trailer, direct the driver of the commercial motor vehicle to drive it and to draw the attached trailer, if any, to another location where the inspection will be carried out or continued or the vehicle's load will be removed, or any of them.

Inspection

(4) The police officer or officer appointed for carrying out the provisions of this Act may, at the location where the commercial motor vehicle was first stopped or at the location to which it was directed, inspect the commercial motor vehicle and its trailer for critical defects.

Driver, person in charge, to assist inspector

(5) The driver and any other person in charge of the commercial motor vehicle who is present shall assist the police officer or officer appointed for carrying out the provisions of this Act in his or her inspection of the commercial motor vehicle and its trailer.

If critical defect found

(6) If the police officer or officer appointed for carrying out the provisions of this Act finds that the commercial motor vehicle or trailer has one or more critical defect, the vehicle shall be deemed to have been found to be in dangerous or unsafe condition under section 82, but instead of exercising the powers set out in subsections 82 (2) and (5), he or she shall forthwith,

(a) notify the Registrar of the findings or cause the Registrar to be notified;

(b) seize the number plates of the vehicle that has the critical defect or defects and remove its vehicle inspection sticker or comparable device issued by another jurisdiction; and

(c) detain the vehicle that has the critical defect or defects until the Registrar issues an order under subsection (7).

Order to impound and suspend or to release

(7) Upon notification under subsection (6), the Registrar may, without a hearing, issue an order to release the vehicle or issue an order to impound the vehicle and suspend the vehicle portion of its permit as follows:

1. For 15 days, if the vehicle has not previously been impounded under this section within a prescribed period.
2. For 30 days, if the vehicle has been impounded once under this section within a prescribed period.
3. For 60 days, if the vehicle has been impounded two or more times under this section within a prescribed period.

Permit suspended

(8) Upon issuing an order to impound and suspend under subsection (7), the Registrar shall suspend the vehicle portion of the permit of the vehicle that is subject to the order, and the suspension shall be effective when the order is issued.

…..

More to follow… Additional reading can be found in the Highway Traffic Act.

Examination of vehicle

82. (1) Every police officer and every officer appointed for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of this Act may require the driver or owner of any motor vehicle or motor assisted bicycle to submit the motor vehicle or motor assisted bicycle, together with its equipment and any trailer attached thereto, to the examinations and tests that the police officer or officer may consider expedient.

Use of unsafe vehicle prohibited

(2) Where any such vehicle, equipment or trailer is found to be in a dangerous or unsafe condition, the police officer or officer making the examination or tests may require the driver or owner of the vehicle to proceed to have the vehicle, equipment or trailer placed in a safe condition and may order the vehicle or trailer to be removed from the highway and may prohibit the operation of the vehicle or trailer on the highway until the vehicle, equipment or trailer has been placed in a safe condition.

Penalty

(3) Every person who refuses or fails to comply with a requirement made under subsection (1) is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not more than $1,000.

Notice requiring examination and tests

(4) Subsection (3) does not apply unless the police officer or officer has given to the person a written notice in the prescribed form requiring the person to submit the motor vehicle or motor assisted bicycle, together with its equipment and any trailer attached thereto, to examination and tests. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 82 (1-4).

Seizure of plates and inspection sticker

(5) Where the operation of a motor vehicle, motor assisted bicycle or trailer has been prohibited under subsection (2), the police officer or officer may remove the vehicle inspection sticker, or comparable device issued by another jurisdiction, from the vehicle, if it is a commercial motor vehicle or trailer, and may seize the number plates of the vehicle and hold them until the vehicle has been placed in a safe condition. 1997, c. 12, s. 9.

. . . . .

Note that under ‘Use of unsafe vehicle prohibited”, this only holds true if the vehicle is found to be in a dangerous or unsafe condition - so what is considered a dangerous or unsafe condition? This is defined in section 82.1 where it states a

“… commercial motor vehicle or trailer has one or more critical defect, the vehicle shall be deemed to have been found to be in dangerous or unsafe condition under section 82”


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motti

You won't find a lot of vehicle roadworthiness standards in the HTA. The HTA deals with law. All it really had to do is specify that a car must be safe for use on the road.

Some items are specifically stated in the HTA, such as tire tread depth, but the rest is not. You won't find anything in the HTA regarding allowable play in ball joints. You won't find anything stating the specific required position of a front license plate other than it is to be "prominently" displayed. Instead, what is considered allowable is dictated by associated regulations, common practice, motor vehicle manufacturer standards, and so on.

As far as your winter beater is concerned, there is a difference between you "not wanting to bash your car" and your car not being capable of handling ordinary curb cuts. Any car coming off the dealers' lots these days can handle curb cuts and driveway ramps at reasonable speeds without risk of bottoming or suspension or steering damage. I'm not saying that you should be diving from the street into the Walmart lot at 50kmph, although most cars are capable of doing just that, but you shouldn't have to almost stop to do so either.

If you do, your car is simply non-roadworthy, whether that condition exists because you have lowered it too much, or whether the car's spring and shock components have worn to the point where they need replacing, or whether you have overloaded your vehicle past its rated carrying capacity.

Now if you;re coming to a near stop for other reasons, say, you think it looks "cool", look in your mirror and see just how "cool" you look in the eyes of the traffic you are holding up because either you or your car can't handle an ordinary driving environment.

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

it's not how "cool" it is to stop traffic... I just think the roads are so bad that I have no choice but to stop and negotiate curb cuts and railroad crossings and so on very carefully. I see no reason to put the longevity of my car in jeopardy over a 3 second delay in traffic. My car is not low at all, and I hardly every drive it even cuz I get so pissed that the roads are such absolute crap. And it's not even that it's uncomfortable or that I fear damage...

I would think the ppl should have the right to write an "HTA" where it specifies the conditions of the road that we can reasonably expect seeing as how we pay taxes and all. It seems all the rules are coming our way, we should be allowed to send some back and state some standards for the gov't to follow. Like I expect that a manhole cover be at the same level as the paved road surface, not 3 inches lower or higher

Now, for the cars coming off dealer lots these days, I'd like to see you take a Porsche 911 GT3 and have an "encounter" under your ordinary driving conditions and see what you think when you come out of that with bent control arms and blown wheel bearings. j/k

You get what I'm saying though... we don't do it cuz we want to, we do it as a necessary step to protect our investment from poor road conditions. Our cars are not expected to hop the curb 40 times w/o damage like your cop cars... no. We just wanna have reasonably smooth roads that are in good state of repair. You ask us to keep our cars in good state of repair, and we ask you to keep the roads in good state of repair. I think it's a fair trade.

I can rawk Mosport or Shannonville all day long in my car, clipping curbs and never slowing down... but on the street it's a different game, the surface texture is so unpredictable that it's downright scary.

motti

The issue isn't about having people wait the 3 second delay in traffic. The issue if the traffic backup and potential for accidents that such backups create, as traffic stops for an unnecessary reason. In heavy traffic, the ripple effects of you almost stopping to cross a curb cut can have repercussions several kilometers behind you.

With respect to "clipping curbs" at Mosport and Shannonville, I have driven Shannonville and Mosport both in competition and just for high speed lapping. I've also got track time at the Toronto Molson Indy course, Watkins Glen, the old Detroit tracks both downtown and Belle Isle, Mid-Ohio, Waterford Hills, Cleveland. I even have a couple of laps at Daytona Speedway, though that was in a motorhome and not very high up on the banking.

Going off track and even just bouncing of the gator strips lap after lap at high speed is a lot harder on your suspension or steering that any curb cut you're likely to encounter on the street. Yet I see Porsches doing just that lap after lap, race after race, with no discernible bad effects, just as long as they don't the bigger ruts at Mosport or catch a bedrock ledge while sliding sideways at Shannonville. And if you think the surfaces on GTA roads are bad and unpredictable, you should see just bad the runway and taxiways that they use for the race course at Cleveland. A properly mantained and set-up car can handle road surface irregularities day after day, because that is what they are designed to do.

Yes the roads in the GTA could be better, and I'm sure if we were all to agree to pay higher taxes they would be. To a point. We live in a climate where freezing temperatures means that we are subject to the effects of frost heaving for 25% of the year. Our road surfaces will rise up and down with the frost. Unfortunately, our manholes and other access points do not move as much, given that their bases are rooted well below the frost line. As a result we will get uneven road surfaces as the freeze/thaw cycle occurs each and every year.

Still, millions of cars manage the streets of the GTA day in and day out without damage. Our suspensions are designed to absorb all but the largest potholes over and over again. A driveway curb cut is nothing if your car is properly set up and maintained, even if it is a GT3.

By the way, I don't drive a "cop car". My car is just an import, and I don't let curb cuts bother me in the least. Nor has my car or the ones before it ever suffered for it through blown bearings, damaged rims or tires, or bent suspension and steering parts.

Cynikal.Mindset

me driving down wyandotte is an obstacle course...so many holes and ruts and mounds its rediculous!

gotta zig zag slow down and all that stuff...windsor has to get their pave on!

imported_gatherer

I can **** farther then anyone....