Why b16a2 is not good for turbo?
05-Oct-2005, 09:58 PM
#1
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Why b16a2 is not good for turbo?
Hey, so I decided I wanna go with a b16a2 setup with turbo. I've been reading and researching and I get teh impression that this engine is not the greatest engine for turbo-ing because of v-tec, but is still do-able. I read alot about retarding, advancing, and overlapping and idling issues on teh engine because of vtec. What are these people talking about and how does it help with the vtec engine?
If this is a major problem. Then maybe a b18b turbo setup is better. Of course I'll use the extra money i save to build it up a little to take the boost. But i would like to have the v-tec without building an ls-vtec. And also what are they talking about when they say the b18b doesnt have a perfect stroke ration for turbo?
If this is a major problem. Then maybe a b18b turbo setup is better. Of course I'll use the extra money i save to build it up a little to take the boost. But i would like to have the v-tec without building an ls-vtec. And also what are they talking about when they say the b18b doesnt have a perfect stroke ration for turbo?
05-Oct-2005, 10:34 PM
#2
well people say b16's are no good for turbo b/c it already has a 10.2 or 10.4:1 CR to begin with, and thats a little high for boost.
You can make 300whp on a stock b16, i've seen a b16 make like 420whp at 17psi before it blew up.
Get some forged rods and low compression pistons (8-9:1 CR would be ideal) and it can handle more, mind you the more power your engine makes the more important a real good tune is.
B16's are good for turbo in my opinion b/c of the rod/stroke ratio. Its nice and short, and thats what makes the b16 stable at higher revs. Now the LS (b18a/b) has a longer stroke, hence the lower redline, but this will create more torque, but is more of an issue with naturally aspirated engines b/c boosted engines have torque out the wazoo.
Boost the b16, lots of people do it.
You can make 300whp on a stock b16, i've seen a b16 make like 420whp at 17psi before it blew up.
Get some forged rods and low compression pistons (8-9:1 CR would be ideal) and it can handle more, mind you the more power your engine makes the more important a real good tune is.
B16's are good for turbo in my opinion b/c of the rod/stroke ratio. Its nice and short, and thats what makes the b16 stable at higher revs. Now the LS (b18a/b) has a longer stroke, hence the lower redline, but this will create more torque, but is more of an issue with naturally aspirated engines b/c boosted engines have torque out the wazoo.
Boost the b16, lots of people do it.
05-Oct-2005, 10:41 PM
#3
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,176
zeeman already covered everything I was going to say and more.
People say boosted b16's aren't great because of the high compression. But IMO, don't go boost crazy and you'll make awesome power. If you have the extra cash spring for the l/c pistons and rods just like zeeman said.
Just remember, tuning is the key to a F/I engine.
People say boosted b16's aren't great because of the high compression. But IMO, don't go boost crazy and you'll make awesome power. If you have the extra cash spring for the l/c pistons and rods just like zeeman said.
Just remember, tuning is the key to a F/I engine.
05-Oct-2005, 11:00 PM
#4
static compression is only a very small part of the overall equation. many other things come to play when boosting a factory NA engine, like CC design and piston material and so on. IMO, the B16A is a fine engine to boost. Just that the B18s have more exhaust volume to spin the turbo, thereby making it a better choice for a turbo. in addition, it develops torque at lower rpm compared to the B16, making the area under the curve larger. basically, the engine with more torque builds rpm faster, bringing it into boost faster, and hence making the area under the curve larger and the car quicker.
06-Oct-2005, 08:24 PM
#9
Originally posted by tranh2
Thanks guys,
I'm going to go with a b16a2.
Now, whats this about retarding, advancing timing, and vtec not liking overlapping? What are they talkign about?
Thanks guys,
I'm going to go with a b16a2.
Now, whats this about retarding, advancing timing, and vtec not liking overlapping? What are they talkign about?
)if you do go turbo you have to retard your timing. timing refers to the point at which the spark plug is fired to initiate a combustion event. normally I think the spec on most Hondas should be around 16 degrees before top dead center (BTDC). the later you fire it, the higher the chances of detonation (which would prolly leave a hole in your piston or block or valves). now, don't get it twisted. a good fuel management system (Hondata, CROME, AEM EMS) all include the retard points into the boost maps. The ECU controls the ignition timing event. so you leave the distributor at the stock base timing, and the ECU does the rest.
as for vtec not liking overlapping, I can only assume you are talking about the overlap of the cams in terms of boost. overlap is the period of time when the cam is keeping both the intake and exhaust valves open. this is great for exhaust scavenging on an NA engine, but when you are pressurizing the intake tract, then you wanna keep that exhaust valve closed when the intake valve is open. luckily you can get turbo cams for the B16A2 that would fix that lil problem. yeah, it'll cost you a grand or whatever for the cams, but thats one of the things about putting a turbo where it wasn't meant to go. or now that I think about it, since the intake and exhaust are separate camshafts, you can prolly just use adjustable cam gears and tune it on a dyno.
06-Oct-2005, 08:30 PM
#10
yeah cam gears are good for tuning out the overlap not desireable with boosted engines.
I don't see why people think vtec is no good for boost....imagine how well i turbo would respond to a sudden increase in air flow (i.e vtec x-over). I just feel sorry for the guy who's gotta actually tune that biatch....lol
I don't see why people think vtec is no good for boost....imagine how well i turbo would respond to a sudden increase in air flow (i.e vtec x-over). I just feel sorry for the guy who's gotta actually tune that biatch....lol
06-Oct-2005, 08:48 PM
#11
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Originally posted by bbarbulo
please ignore the useless comments (except boost>vtec - that's totally true )
if you do go turbo you have to retard your timing. timing refers to the point at which the spark plug is fired to initiate a combustion event. normally I think the spec on most Hondas should be around 16 degrees before top dead center (BTDC). the later you fire it, the higher the chances of detonation (which would prolly leave a hole in your piston or block or valves). now, don't get it twisted. a good fuel management system (Hondata, CROME, AEM EMS) all include the retard points into the boost maps. The ECU controls the ignition timing event. so you leave the distributor at the stock base timing, and the ECU does the rest.
as for vtec not liking overlapping, I can only assume you are talking about the overlap of the cams in terms of boost. overlap is the period of time when the cam is keeping both the intake and exhaust valves open. this is great for exhaust scavenging on an NA engine, but when you are pressurizing the intake tract, then you wanna keep that exhaust valve closed when the intake valve is open. luckily you can get turbo cams for the B16A2 that would fix that lil problem. yeah, it'll cost you a grand or whatever for the cams, but thats one of the things about putting a turbo where it wasn't meant to go. or now that I think about it, since the intake and exhaust are separate camshafts, you can prolly just use adjustable cam gears and tune it on a dyno.
please ignore the useless comments (except boost>vtec - that's totally true
)if you do go turbo you have to retard your timing. timing refers to the point at which the spark plug is fired to initiate a combustion event. normally I think the spec on most Hondas should be around 16 degrees before top dead center (BTDC). the later you fire it, the higher the chances of detonation (which would prolly leave a hole in your piston or block or valves). now, don't get it twisted. a good fuel management system (Hondata, CROME, AEM EMS) all include the retard points into the boost maps. The ECU controls the ignition timing event. so you leave the distributor at the stock base timing, and the ECU does the rest.
as for vtec not liking overlapping, I can only assume you are talking about the overlap of the cams in terms of boost. overlap is the period of time when the cam is keeping both the intake and exhaust valves open. this is great for exhaust scavenging on an NA engine, but when you are pressurizing the intake tract, then you wanna keep that exhaust valve closed when the intake valve is open. luckily you can get turbo cams for the B16A2 that would fix that lil problem. yeah, it'll cost you a grand or whatever for the cams, but thats one of the things about putting a turbo where it wasn't meant to go. or now that I think about it, since the intake and exhaust are separate camshafts, you can prolly just use adjustable cam gears and tune it on a dyno.
06-Oct-2005, 10:00 PM
#12
ya, I thinkk good cams would run about $1000 or so. 
I dunno cuz I run a SOHC.
the adjustable part... well that's just the cam sprockets that are adjustable, not the cams themselves. and you are right, they do have screws that hold them down, and yeah they have failed in the past. this would result in catastrophic engine failure. (valve and piston contact). so don't try to save money when buying cam sprockets, get the best there is.
I dunno cuz I run a SOHC.the adjustable part... well that's just the cam sprockets that are adjustable, not the cams themselves. and you are right, they do have screws that hold them down, and yeah they have failed in the past. this would result in catastrophic engine failure. (valve and piston contact). so don't try to save money when buying cam sprockets, get the best there is.
07-Oct-2005, 09:34 AM
#13
to add to what bruno said, buy a cam gear that has more than 3 screws on it to hold it in place.
And $1000 for cams alone sounds about right. More if you get valve springs and retainers. I know mine cost $1400. But thats not what i paid....like hell i would pay $1400 for that.
Any idea how much a cam upgrade for a domestic car costs....a fraction of that.
And $1000 for cams alone sounds about right. More if you get valve springs and retainers. I know mine cost $1400. But thats not what i paid....like hell i would pay $1400 for that.
Any idea how much a cam upgrade for a domestic car costs....a fraction of that.
08-Oct-2005, 02:22 PM
#16
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Posts: 41
Originally posted by zeeman
you can't even compare the two. Sleeving a block is expensive while blockguards are cheap. I think posting a block would be a better idea than using a blockguard.
you can't even compare the two. Sleeving a block is expensive while blockguards are cheap. I think posting a block would be a better idea than using a blockguard.
08-Oct-2005, 02:31 PM
#17
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 194
stock sleeves, forged pistons, arp rod bolts, balance the reciprocating mass, and you are good for 400whp+. lastly a b16 turbo is faster than an ls turbo. having a smaller displacement motor increases its ability to track of the line. out of the hole, the 16 will stay with the ls, and we all know, anything above 6K is vtecland. ls turbo's are quick, but, turbo vtec is insane up top. the first time i rode in a b16 turbo'd da (almost 10 years ago), i laughed when the tires started to scream at 7500rpm in 3rd. this is what it is....if you plan on going f.i., use the platform that you have. vtec or non, the car will still make good power. but, vtec owns. all motor or f.i.
08-Oct-2005, 03:49 PM
#18
This will explain what block posting is.
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/tech_pr...block_posting/
I agree with 8.5K that b16's make great turbo engines if you drop the CR down.
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/tech_pr...block_posting/
I agree with 8.5K that b16's make great turbo engines if you drop the CR down.
08-Oct-2005, 04:39 PM
#19
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 205
Originally posted by zeeman
to add to what bruno said, buy a cam gear that has more than 3 screws on it to hold it in place.
And $1000 for cams alone sounds about right. More if you get valve springs and retainers. I know mine cost $1400. But thats not what i paid....like hell i would pay $1400 for that.
Any idea how much a cam upgrade for a domestic car costs....a fraction of that.
to add to what bruno said, buy a cam gear that has more than 3 screws on it to hold it in place.
And $1000 for cams alone sounds about right. More if you get valve springs and retainers. I know mine cost $1400. But thats not what i paid....like hell i would pay $1400 for that.
Any idea how much a cam upgrade for a domestic car costs....a fraction of that.
They can be had much cheaper then 1k as well. Ill sell you mine for 1k
08-Oct-2005, 07:56 PM
#20
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Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 533
so 16 degrees refers to the cam being turned 16 degrees before the full 360 degrees is complete???
im having a hard time understanding this principle but i do know a bit...
now if the spark occurs later? the piston will basically compress the air/fuel mixture w/out the combustion, and the power wont be made???
im having a hard time understanding this principle but i do know a bit...
now if the spark occurs later? the piston will basically compress the air/fuel mixture w/out the combustion, and the power wont be made???
Originally posted by bbarbulo
please ignore the useless comments (except boost>vtec - that's totally true )
if you do go turbo you have to retard your timing. timing refers to the point at which the spark plug is fired to initiate a combustion event. normally I think the spec on most Hondas should be around 16 degrees before top dead center (BTDC). the later you fire it, the higher the chances of detonation (which would prolly leave a hole in your piston or block or valves). now, don't get it twisted. a good fuel management system (Hondata, CROME, AEM EMS) all include the retard points into the boost maps. The ECU controls the ignition timing event. so you leave the distributor at the stock base timing, and the ECU does the rest.
as for vtec not liking overlapping, I can only assume you are talking about the overlap of the cams in terms of boost. overlap is the period of time when the cam is keeping both the intake and exhaust valves open. this is great for exhaust scavenging on an NA engine, but when you are pressurizing the intake tract, then you wanna keep that exhaust valve closed when the intake valve is open. luckily you can get turbo cams for the B16A2 that would fix that lil problem. yeah, it'll cost you a grand or whatever for the cams, but thats one of the things about putting a turbo where it wasn't meant to go. or now that I think about it, since the intake and exhaust are separate camshafts, you can prolly just use adjustable cam gears and tune it on a dyno.
please ignore the useless comments (except boost>vtec - that's totally true
)if you do go turbo you have to retard your timing. timing refers to the point at which the spark plug is fired to initiate a combustion event. normally I think the spec on most Hondas should be around 16 degrees before top dead center (BTDC). the later you fire it, the higher the chances of detonation (which would prolly leave a hole in your piston or block or valves). now, don't get it twisted. a good fuel management system (Hondata, CROME, AEM EMS) all include the retard points into the boost maps. The ECU controls the ignition timing event. so you leave the distributor at the stock base timing, and the ECU does the rest.
as for vtec not liking overlapping, I can only assume you are talking about the overlap of the cams in terms of boost. overlap is the period of time when the cam is keeping both the intake and exhaust valves open. this is great for exhaust scavenging on an NA engine, but when you are pressurizing the intake tract, then you wanna keep that exhaust valve closed when the intake valve is open. luckily you can get turbo cams for the B16A2 that would fix that lil problem. yeah, it'll cost you a grand or whatever for the cams, but thats one of the things about putting a turbo where it wasn't meant to go. or now that I think about it, since the intake and exhaust are separate camshafts, you can prolly just use adjustable cam gears and tune it on a dyno.
