kimchee

I'm thinking of upgrading my motor to a turbo instead of building an N/A motor when I get back. But I just need to look at my options and sacrifices. These questions came to mind while I was thinking about going turbo. I know nothing about Forced Induction.

The motor I have is 1st gen B16A. Turbo in mind is t-28. Things I will upgrade on my motor are: pistons/rods/crank/sleeve/cams/valvetrain.
Engine management will be done with a hondata unit and VAFC.

Emissions:
If tuned properly, would a turbo car pass emissions tests? Or am I just gonna have to throw emissions out the window...

Fuel:
I understand that you need bigger injectors for turbo applications. Does this mean I'm going to visit the gas pumps more often?

Maintenance:
How often does a turbo motor need a tune up?




Turbo Guru's: please enlighten me with your knowledge

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

to answer your questions, yeah you can pass emissions, yeah it will cost you at the pumps, and tune up about once every couple of months or so depending on the heat range of your plugs.

in all honesty, if you rely on this car to get you around and you can't afford a lot of unexpected costs and unexpected downtime, I would just say stick to a mild NA build.

89SIHATCH?

not only will you be visiting the gas pumps more often but you will be using 94 octane or gold fuel anyways. now that the summer is coming the gas prices go up and people get broke. lol.

maybe stay away from turbo then if any of those are a problem for you.

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

and why would you use hondata and a vafc?
I would skip on both, convert to obd1 and get it tuned with crome, or stay obd0 and use BRE or turboedit.
You will definately need bigger injectors and need to use premium fuel.
For what you want, you'll be looking at $5,000+ for your engine build. Another $3000 for the turbo setup and $1000 for injectors/tuning. Then you will also need a 2.5-3" mandrel bent exhaust, a better clutch and some sticky tires.
So don't be surprised if you spend $10,000 on your car to get what you want.

chris_si98

why go with a fast spooling turbo such as a t28 and build your block, it is completely pointless imo. T28's are good turbos for us d16 boosters.. for your setup I would recommend a t3/t4 or a gt28r or something in that neighbourhood. Do your research on different turbos, each turbo has something different to offer. Some will offer a better torque curve, powerband, some will give you peak hp, some will drop around 6500rpm, spool late in your rev's, etc.

personally.. if you ABSOULETLY have no other source of transportion I wouldn't boost. I am running into stupid problems. I have 4 exhausts leaks that I need 20$ gaskets for.. its the unexpected things that catch ya.

Also.. instead of running hondata and a hack (which is pntless and andrew already explained) I would recommend using Crome Pro as it is cheaper and pretty much the same as hondata (will obvs. not the same, but for the price of hondata its overkill) What obd are you anyways? If you are obd0 I would go with turboedit (which isn't as great as crome)

You mentioned you want to build your block.. which I think is pntless.. you can get pretty damn good numbers on your b16 with your stock block, and if you have to build it to get the #'s you want, then it shouldnt be your daily driver.. 275whp+ is a waste on a fwd DD.

dingus888

as stated the t28 will run out of steam before your engine reaches 6000 rpm

you can get 250 -270 whp no problem outta a b16

get a bigger turbo 50 trim 57 trim

fp green

or a garret hybrid

you want somethign that can flow in the high rpms

chris_si98

t28's can rev past 6K, what r u talking about?

USDMSIG

I think what he means it wont hit as hard as a t3/t4....in 4th gear ...
like other mentioned dont waste your time with the t28,...get a t3/t4 50 trim or 57.....if your on a budget and u still wanna build your block I would suggest a holset turbo...try ebay...great prices on there.

chris_si98

"the t28 will run out of steam before your engine reaches 6000 rpm"

"I think what he means it wont hit as hard as a t3/t4....in 4th gear ..."

yup you're right. i dont know what I was thinking..

kimchee

Wow... that's a lot of things to think about.

I guess turbo isn't such a good idea. I guess there is no such thing as a reliable turbo build? Would my stock internals be fine with 8 lbs of boost?

I always use 91 octane or higher... but how much more fuel are we talking about here? I get about 400kms per tank right now. Maybe 350kms per tank with turbo?

damn... I should just build a really nice N/A motor.

Thanks for the lookout guys

USDMSIG

As far as reliablity goes and the amount of boost you can run...wiill greatly depend on the tune...ive seen stock b16 run 15lbs on a daily driver. As far as the fuel concern u have It depends on how hard you drive the car etc, even if you build your motor for na...its still gunna need fuel. If your concerned about gas milege , Id just leave your motor stock.

imported_weiRtech

if it is built, assembled and tuned properly any turbo setup can be reliable. just do it right the first time. sure there are going to be minor things that need to be looked at, but that is part of owning any car that is modified.

there is no feeling like driving under boost.

kimchee

I know I've got to do a lot of maintenance on my car when I get back (re-adjust valves, new clutch, new fuel pump, injectors), and I'm going to pull my motor out of my car to restore my whole chassis and body, so I was thinking of just building a really reliable turbo EF... since everything is going to be off of my car already. I want to piece it together from the ground up.

I understand the money involved in a turbo setup... I hope I can build a reliable daily driver turbo motor that won't disappoint me.

If I was to go N/A, I think I would have went all out... spending just as much as a decent turbo build. And I guess a built NA motor drinks a lot of fuel as well.

weiRtech, could you be kind enough to share your setup with us? And how much did your setup cost? What were your biggest problems (if any) with a turbo motor?

Thanks buddy

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

tuning and heat are going to be your greatest challenges. if you can control the heat, and get your car tuned properly, I don't see a problem with having a turbo. but again, it does take a lot of money.

I think part of the reason Civics are so reliable, in addition to their great build quality, is their low torque output. With little torque, there is little stress on all components, engine, drivetrain, and chassis. If you really want a reliable car, I say follow Honda's build approach. Build an engine that can rev sky high, like 9000+ rpm.

turbos fatten up the torque curve and therefore put more stress on everything, engine mounts, clutch, axles, chassis, etc etc etc.

imported_weiRtech

before i get started, i'd just like to say that i am trying to contribute to this thread by responding with helpful information and the pictures included are intended with that purpose in mind, not as an advertisement in any way.

there are a lot of unforseen little things that you don't really think about when you do a turbo setup... especially if you don't go through doing the research side of things. i've learned a lot along the way.

i originally started out with a used turbo that i thought i was going to use that i got a good deal on and it was in pretty decent shape after i cleaned it up. it was a mitsubishi TEO4H out of an old chrysler lebaron. i did some research AFTER i got the turbo and realized it wasn't going get me to my eventual goal down the road so i sold it and started looking for a T3/T4. i also sold the ramhorn manifold i made for the turbo.

i've been able to pick up most of the parts if not all of the parts for my setup online, either used, or new. i kept my eyes peeled for deals on forum classified sections and tried to get to know the membership on the forums i was looking on so i knew who was safe to buy from and who not.

T3/T4 Turbonetics turbo: $460US
i picked this thing up off another forum and it had never seen oil. it was brand new. the seller was getting rid of it in favour of saving for a welder. i did a bit of looking around to see what it was worth and realized i was getting it for probably close to half price so i bought it. i think the turbo should be one of, if not the first thing you should buy for a setup that is pieced together as everything else is based off it.


Tial 44mm Wastegate: $318US
i bought this off nolimitmotorsport.com one of the h-t vendors. i was able to swing the regular price for shipping within the us by chatting the guy up a bit via pm's. a tial knock off 38mm can be had for around $100US. i had one in my original setup and had no problems with it only after i disassembled it and gave it a careful inspection.


3" stainless steel downpipe: $0
i made this so it only cost me materials which i got for free for doing a favour for a local exhaust shop where i get my mandrel bends and flex pipe from. normally somthing like this could cost between $3505CDN and $500US depending on where you get it made.


top mount manifold: $160US
that is just what i paid for materials only as i made the manifold myself as well. i ordered the mild steel mandrel bends from mike at lsdmotorsports.com normally a manifold like this could cost anywhere from $750US to $1250US depending on where you get it from.


custom 26"x12"x3" bar and plate intercooler: $200US (core only)
again, i got a killer deal on 2 brand new bar and plate cores from a vendor on another site. i made the end tanks and also had to make the front cross member and cross brace to make it fit. a tube and fin intercooler can be had for anywhere from $130-$170US depending on what size it is.

aluminum double core radiator: $236CDN
i picked this up because i couldn't make the full length original rad fit with everything else in my crx. i got it brand new from a distributor in ottawa. it is an offshore part, but i've had no problems with it.


charge piping and couplers: $125US (materials only)
i picked up all my aluminum charge piping and couplers as a do it yourself kit off ebay. the piping is nice, but the couplers are pretty cheap as they aren't thread reinforced and i've popped a couple just a 8psi. i'll probably replace them as i turn up the boost in the future. having charge piping welded together would obviously make it more expensive.


oil cooler/filter relocation kit: $60US (core only)
not really nescassary, but when you are heating up your oil running it through i turbo it is always a good idea to try and keep it cool. i picked up the oil cooler core off ebay and made the adapters myself. i could have used cheap hose for everything but i prefer stainless braided and the fittings aren't cheap: $350CDN.


3" high flow cat: $150CDN
i picked up the cat from someone on here and i had to add flanges to it. i think it made a big difference over the stock cat on my old setup.


oil feed and return lines: $200US
i also went with decent russel fittings and stainless braided line for my oil feed and i welded up a hard return line which didn't cost me anything. you can find oil line kits online usually for around $75US.


blitz dd blow off valve: $90US (used)
i bought this off another forum. you can find bov's just about anywhere online. a lot of guy are using the 1G DSM bov's because they are relatively cheap. i just wanted something decent but didn't feel it nescassary to purchase brand new. i'd stay away from the ebay stuff though.

zeitronix wideband o2 kit: $570US
i was able to get in on a group buy with another forum and saved myself a bit of money. cheaper widebands can be had for around $200US but i wanted something with more features ie: egt probe, boost sensor, lcd display. with this setup, other gauges aren't nescassary if you get the lcd.

imported_weiRtech

PART 2

DSM 450cc fuel injectors: $60US
these are what i'm currently running. if you look around you can find them for a decent price. i have a set of 550's that i'll probably be putting in when the engine gets rebuilt unless they turn out to be not big enough.

ECU chip, moates ostrich and tuning: $250US
this can get even more pricey depending on how much time you want to spend tuning unless you have a good friend like andrew who knows what he's doing.

74mm DH racing throttle body: $265US
not really nescassary for boost, but i wanted it and i was able to get it brand new for a decent price off another forum.


custom large plenum intake manifold: $80CDN (materials only)
again, not nescassary for boost, but a larger plenum does help a bit and i always wanted to make my own intake manifold. this will hopefully be replaced next year with a better design.


Blitz power meter i-d: $248000 YEN
that translates to about $250US. i picked it up in japan at a yellow hat store. it seems to work pretty good although i wish i could read the manual. it is similar to a g-tech... also not nescassary for boost.

so all told i probably have around $3000+US into my setup with a couple extra goodies and i did all the fab work myself. that would probably bump the price another $2000 if those parts had to be purchased.

i am also starting to collect parts for turning up the boost. ie: forged internals and an electronic boost controller along with stonger hardware...

some of the problems i've had with boost:
a couple blown silicone couplers which isn't that big a deal. i'd like to eventually go with t-bolt clamps instead of just hose clamps.

i've had a couple small oil leaks which were just a couple loose fittings. in my original setup my oil return line wasn't big enough so i had an oil drain issue, but live and learn.

tuning counts for a lot. last summer i just ran on a VAFC hack and the car was never really consistent. i kept getting cel's and was frustrated with the overall performance although reliability was ok. this year i've had it tuned by andrew on crome and the difference is unbelievable. the car is running better than ever before and i figure i'm making around 280whp after about 2 hours of street tuning.

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

just wait until we get some more time for tuning that beast aaron. Especially if you can get a chance to get er on the dyno. I wanna go with mine again to see what kind of numbers i'm puttin down, we should go at the same time.
Aarons car is the perfect example of what research, patience and knowledge, not to mention some serious fabbing skills can produce. I would be seriously surprised if that car made anything less than your guesstimate. It honestly feels like it pulls harder than my buddy Dennis' built boosted b16 crx and he made 310whp.
There are some things that you can go without (wideband, oil cooler, oil relocator, expensive turbo manifold, bigger t/b and IM) if you're on a tighter budget, but if you're on a budget, boost prolly isn't for you. But $3000 is a good general idea of how much you would spend to get a turbo kit up and going on your car.
Like aaron says tuning is very important with boosted cars for safety, reliability and power.

kimchee

Thank you, your post was much appreciated. It pretty much sumed up everything I needed to know, thanks again.

Well, I'm on a budget... but not too much of a tight one. I'm looking to put in $10K into my car in total (body restoration + performance) as soon as I get out of Afghanistan.

Boost was always on my mind since I bought my B16A 2 years ago. So it looks like I'm going to go with the turbo decision.

So, T3/T4.... I have no idea what to look for when coming to turbo choice. What's a simple explaination of those numbers? example: compared to T28? (I just thought T28 was a default choice since Edelbrock's turbo kit for B16 is GT28RS)

chris_si98

a t28 and gt28rs are different turbos.. only the flanges are the same on those turbos.

A t3/t4 is a good choice for low and high boost application.. plus t3 flanges and manifolds are everywhere, so it wont be hard finding pieces for your turbo.

I could go into specifics like compressor maps, trims, spool time, etc.. but you are better off learning about it on your own, that way you actually KNOW what to look for, instead of following what a few guys tell you on the tcc boards.

homemadeturbo.com is a good site to start out at.. so is http://forums.evans-tuning.com.. even though evans tuning doesn't get a lot of traffic, still a lot of useful threads to read. Also, theres a sticky at the top of the performance section where I posted several links.. read through them. Learn your stuff before you start!

kimchee

Cool, thanks a lot guys. I appreciate all the help. I will probably ask more questions after I read that material.