spring rate vs. damping
18-Jan-2004, 09:23 AM
#1
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spring rate vs. damping
for a coilover system, if you could only pick one or the other:
-choice of spring rate/valving with no damping
vs.
-soft spring rate (e.g. 8kg f/ 5kg r) with damping)
... which do you think is more 'important' or 'beneficial', and why?
... car would be a daily driver with an emphasis on performance (solo2/track)
thanks
-choice of spring rate/valving with no damping
vs.
-soft spring rate (e.g. 8kg f/ 5kg r) with damping)
... which do you think is more 'important' or 'beneficial', and why?
... car would be a daily driver with an emphasis on performance (solo2/track)
thanks
18-Jan-2004, 10:45 AM
#2
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Location: on a race track
Posts: 17,846
ok I'm unclear by your question....
but the general rule for autocross is adjustable shocks that can be stiffened for the event and turned down after....
contary to popular belief the spring is not the only part of the system that can stiffen up your ride.... the shock absorber probably has just as much effect. since a stiff shock aborber will restrictthe movement of the spring....
anyways let's talk about those spring rates for a second.
have you ever gone autoX'ing? I'm a guessing that answer is no...
see stiff rates in the front as compared to the back is what causes the car to understeer. this is how honda engineers designed the car. they feel that an understeer condition is easier for the typical driver to contorl... the other option is a rear end that swings out every turn....
most manufacturers of springs do not want to deviate from this engineering design.... why? because if you've ever been able to set a honda up so that it's rear end happy, you'll know that it's a pain in the *** to control.... at CNAC I set my car up to be really rear end happy for my first run, (this was a mistake on my part but here's what happened) after I left the gate and entered the first slalom turn ...which wasn't much of a turn ...maybe 20 degrees tot he right at most in a nice sweep...nothing tight... well before I could use a 4 letter swear word I was facing 180 degrees from where I was suppose to ....
however if you learn to control an oversteer situation you can easily be very very very fast .. how do you set up a car for oversteer? well you could take your stock honda and put tire pressures to the extremes.... or you could take your spring rates and put them softer int he front then the rear or you could just add a rear sway bar....
also the spring rate is not the damping force. damping .. or the force thats used to counteract the springs is determined by the shocks....
I hope this helps.... with clearer questions I coudl right more
but the general rule for autocross is adjustable shocks that can be stiffened for the event and turned down after....
contary to popular belief the spring is not the only part of the system that can stiffen up your ride.... the shock absorber probably has just as much effect. since a stiff shock aborber will restrictthe movement of the spring....
anyways let's talk about those spring rates for a second.
have you ever gone autoX'ing? I'm a guessing that answer is no...
see stiff rates in the front as compared to the back is what causes the car to understeer. this is how honda engineers designed the car. they feel that an understeer condition is easier for the typical driver to contorl... the other option is a rear end that swings out every turn....
most manufacturers of springs do not want to deviate from this engineering design.... why? because if you've ever been able to set a honda up so that it's rear end happy, you'll know that it's a pain in the *** to control.... at CNAC I set my car up to be really rear end happy for my first run, (this was a mistake on my part but here's what happened) after I left the gate and entered the first slalom turn ...which wasn't much of a turn ...maybe 20 degrees tot he right at most in a nice sweep...nothing tight... well before I could use a 4 letter swear word I was facing 180 degrees from where I was suppose to ....
however if you learn to control an oversteer situation you can easily be very very very fast .. how do you set up a car for oversteer? well you could take your stock honda and put tire pressures to the extremes.... or you could take your spring rates and put them softer int he front then the rear or you could just add a rear sway bar....
also the spring rate is not the damping force. damping .. or the force thats used to counteract the springs is determined by the shocks....
I hope this helps.... with clearer questions I coudl right more
18-Jan-2004, 11:39 AM
#4
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Location: on a race track
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Originally posted by PunkInDrublic
when you say no dampening or dampening do you mean having it adjustable... cause dampening is just the level of "dampening" the shock has isn't it??
when you say no dampening or dampening do you mean having it adjustable... cause dampening is just the level of "dampening" the shock has isn't it??
18-Jan-2004, 02:43 PM
#6
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Originally posted by PunkInDrublic
ya but the more "dampening" the "stiffer" the shock is no??
ya but the more "dampening" the "stiffer" the shock is no??
also the higher the spring rate the more energy thats required to move it.
thats the difference betweent he 2 fun ain't it?
18-Jan-2004, 05:31 PM
#8
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Posts: 12,906
Originally posted by gatherer
yes the more dampening the more resistance there is to spring travel......
also the higher the spring rate the more energy thats required to move it.
thats the difference betweent he 2 fun ain't it?
yes the more dampening the more resistance there is to spring travel......
also the higher the spring rate the more energy thats required to move it.
thats the difference betweent he 2 fun ain't it?
well i knew that... i wasn't sure of the terminology....
19-Jan-2004, 09:15 AM
#11
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Join Date: Dec 2002
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haha thanks man...
i wasn't too sure what you were going on about in your other post but i've already checked HADA... was just curious about differing opinions....
...it really is interesting to see what people have to say... i have my own research and info and others have theirs ... its very obvious that we don't all read from the same books
... but then the more you read the more you know and you learn something new everyday... and learning about cars ain't so bad ...
btw- no one has given me a clear answer on the comparison between spring rates, valving, and damping thrown into the mix... if you crank up your damping you are controlling the spring movement more with the shock... the spring is the main part of the suspension that takes the hits from the road, change in direction (turning), acceleration, braking, and dictates a cars wheel weight (amount of pressure applied to tires)... if the shock is taking over the job of the spring because of damping whats the deal? if you have a soft spring rate but aggressive valving/damping that when you crank up the damping makes the ride very stiff... is it the spring or the shock that is giving you the 'performance'?... because if that were the case why not just make coilovers with aggressive shocks (valving) that come with softer springs to provide a range of applications? why offer stiffer springs? (i realise that a particular shock valving setup would have its range of softness and stiffness that may or may not cover the spring rate which would be a reason for offering different choices and ranges...)
hmmm... i think i just answered my own question...
k.. nevermind
i wasn't too sure what you were going on about in your other post but i've already checked HADA... was just curious about differing opinions....
...it really is interesting to see what people have to say... i have my own research and info and others have theirs ... its very obvious that we don't all read from the same books
... but then the more you read the more you know and you learn something new everyday... and learning about cars ain't so bad ...btw- no one has given me a clear answer on the comparison between spring rates, valving, and damping thrown into the mix... if you crank up your damping you are controlling the spring movement more with the shock... the spring is the main part of the suspension that takes the hits from the road, change in direction (turning), acceleration, braking, and dictates a cars wheel weight (amount of pressure applied to tires)... if the shock is taking over the job of the spring because of damping whats the deal? if you have a soft spring rate but aggressive valving/damping that when you crank up the damping makes the ride very stiff... is it the spring or the shock that is giving you the 'performance'?... because if that were the case why not just make coilovers with aggressive shocks (valving) that come with softer springs to provide a range of applications? why offer stiffer springs? (i realise that a particular shock valving setup would have its range of softness and stiffness that may or may not cover the spring rate which would be a reason for offering different choices and ranges...)
hmmm... i think i just answered my own question...
k.. nevermind
19-Jan-2004, 09:59 AM
#12
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the stiffer the shock the more resistance there is to spring travel.....
lets look at a bump thats 4 inches high in the road.
for this we'll look at a constant spring rate of 300 pounds/inch and 3 different dampening forces... 1 no dampening ... 1 less dampening then the spring rate and 1 more dampening then the spring rate.
with the first once the suspension is over the bump the spring will start osicaliting up and down ... with out a dampener it'll continue to do this till gravity slows it down .... this could take a long while .... this creates a bouning effect inside the car. this is because the spring is trying to return to original length and can't move the ground so it moves the car.
with the next system once again you get a oscilation effect but the dampner does slow it down alot faster then without a dampner. you will however get a few cycles of the compress decompress cycle before the dampner has removed enough energy from the system that it's not moving anymore... again the car is bouncing
witht he last choice the dampner resists the movement of the spring so that the osilcation doesn't happen result: no bouncing... but you will feel the bump harshly. with the other 2 system the oscilation removes the harshness of the bump but creates the "ocean effect" after words
lets look at a dampner thats the same rate as the spring rate.
with this system and the same bump you get the suspension aborbing the bump and gently releasing the stored energy over time... without oscilation. so while you feel the bump it's not as harsh and you don't get the wavey after effects....
lets look at a bump thats 4 inches high in the road.
for this we'll look at a constant spring rate of 300 pounds/inch and 3 different dampening forces... 1 no dampening ... 1 less dampening then the spring rate and 1 more dampening then the spring rate.
with the first once the suspension is over the bump the spring will start osicaliting up and down ... with out a dampener it'll continue to do this till gravity slows it down .... this could take a long while .... this creates a bouning effect inside the car. this is because the spring is trying to return to original length and can't move the ground so it moves the car.
with the next system once again you get a oscilation effect but the dampner does slow it down alot faster then without a dampner. you will however get a few cycles of the compress decompress cycle before the dampner has removed enough energy from the system that it's not moving anymore... again the car is bouncing
witht he last choice the dampner resists the movement of the spring so that the osilcation doesn't happen result: no bouncing... but you will feel the bump harshly. with the other 2 system the oscilation removes the harshness of the bump but creates the "ocean effect" after words
lets look at a dampner thats the same rate as the spring rate.
with this system and the same bump you get the suspension aborbing the bump and gently releasing the stored energy over time... without oscilation. so while you feel the bump it's not as harsh and you don't get the wavey after effects....
19-Jan-2004, 10:00 AM
#13
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ontario
Posts: 18,367
Softer springs (straight or progressive) can only work with certain condition dampers. If the damper is adjust to stiff but the springs remain soft, the damper will take way too much pressure because the springs aren't providing enough stiffness to support the damper.
F8K / R5K is more or less what OEM Hondas have. If you upgrade the shocks to non-adjustable ones, you need to upgrade the springs to F10K/R8K at least to coincide with the stiffer shocks.
Damper adjustment basically increase or decrease compression or rebound damping force.
F8K / R5K is more or less what OEM Hondas have. If you upgrade the shocks to non-adjustable ones, you need to upgrade the springs to F10K/R8K at least to coincide with the stiffer shocks.
Damper adjustment basically increase or decrease compression or rebound damping force.
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