Dominik

I was reading around about some overlapping issue's when using the S2S1 cams. How many degree's should I retard the cams, and which one? I want to rev the motor to 8600 with omni valvetrain. Motor is a B16A1
Is it even worth it to run these cams in this motor?
Will the motor benefit revving that high with those cams?
So far, I have the usual i/h/e.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

if you want to reduce overlap you would have to either retard the intake cam or advance the exhaust cam (or both).
I'm not sure why you would want to reduce the overlap on a stage 1 cam. And stage1 cams are designed to be used with stock valvetrain (its not bad to use aftermarket) so that means they will stop making power at the stock redline (8200).
I would mill the head a bit or use a thinner headgasket to help raise the compression so you can get the most out of the cams.
Don't forget tuning.

Dominik

Is the stock MLS head gasket reusable?

If I'm gonna pull the head, I should just do a complete port and polish, mill it, get some arp studs....

Which would you recommend, thinner gasket or mill the head?

In the long run, my plan is to turbo a GSR, so I could just build up the head now and then later down the road when I do my GSR bottom end, I'll already have a built head.....right?.....

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

but how you would build a head for n/a is different than for boost. With boost headwork isn't so important b/c you can just turn up the boost. I mean, headwork on a boosted car is only going to make it faster, but its not essential like it is on a naturally aspirated engine. And if you mill the head a bunch to raise the compression for n/a you can't get that back when you go turbo, you want lower compression with boost.
And for the cams, turbo cams are different than n/a cams. You can use regular cams on a boosted application, but if you're going to buy cams i would buy turbo cams. But i wouldn't run turbo cams on a n/a car.
I wouldn't reuse a headgasket ever.
You're first question was about overlap and top end power. The two are directly correllated. The more overlap (or tighter Lobe Separation Angle) the better the engine will operate at higher rpms, this is at a sacrifice of lower rpm power. The opposite is also true. If you have cams with less overlap (or wider lobe separation angle) lower rpms will be efficient but higher rpms will suffer.
You can adjust the degree of LSA the cams have by individually adjusting each cam gear. Thus increasing/decreasing the overlap of the valves. But a cam manufacturer usually has a specific LSA that the cams perform the best at....this is where degreeing the cams is important. But i'm not going to get into that.
If you wanna build for turbo, maybe get some better valve springs/retainers and save up for pistons/rods/sleeving. Don't waste your money on porting/headwork or cams or raise the compression.

Dominik

I'm well aware of how to build a boosted car. I have dealt with quite a few DSM's plus built one of my own.
Any set up with benefit from the motor be able to have the air moving in and out faster. Weather it be n/a or f/i. Motors love air and fuel.
As for compression, I'm not to concerned, higher compression on a boosted motor only makes its abit harder to tune, but you also get the low end torque needed on those lapping days.
As for running these cams in turbo application. I figure these will have more benefit then a stock cam, but I know a turbo cam will benefit the motor on a higher level.
As for the headgasket...I just asked because I reused my MLS headgasket from my dsm motor 3 times without any problems with the coolant passages leaking or compression problems. Honda motor must be different....
When it comes to doing the porting/polishing, for me it comes easy because I have all the proper burrs and what not (dad working in the trade) the only problem is I dont have a mill.

Either way, anytime you pull the head, you should always get it checked and resurfaced even if it's not giving you problems.

I guess I just gotta look harder and see what retard/advance this motor benefits from when running these cams....

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

I agree about the air moving in and out....its all about CFM.
But my point was that its not as important to port the head and spend a lot of money on headwork to make 400whp (on a honda) as it is to build the bottom end with forged parts and sleeve it (if you wanna get more than 400whp)
well i will tell you that my built b16 benfitted from a little less overlap than what the cams i am using had.
The only issue with running a cam with a lot of overlap with a turbo is that the air could get forced out the open exhaust valve while its open at the same time as the intake valve. A turbo cam has little to no overlap to prevent this from happening. GSR cams make decent turbo cams. My buddy had skunk2 stage1s in his boosted b16, but has taken them out in favour for some gsrs.
I know people with 350whp on stock b16s (10.4:1 CR), you just have to really be careful with how much timing you run. I would run at least a .75degree/psi retard and have a rock solid AFR.
With a n/a build you can get away with a hell of a lot more timing advance than you can with a turbo. Honda timing maps are pretty conservative to start with.
I have re-used metal headgasket on a honda 4-cylinder, with sucess, but for the $80 it costs, IMO its not worth taking the chance, especially on a b-series, pulling the head to replace it b/c the used one didn't work takes a lot more than it does on a d-series.
Do you have a flow bench? If not, how do you know what you are doing is making beneficial changes? I'm not trying to be a dick, but porting a b-series head isn't just about going in there and taking lots of material away or enlarging the intake port openings.
A good valve job is important, and the shape of the combustion chamber can use some work too. Especially right around the
valves.
There is a really good article on www.theoldone.com about porting b-series heads.

8.5K

Honda heads flow very well. something that most other manufacturers can't say. with that being said, alot of turbo motors need head modification because of poor flow. its that simple. people have made in excess of 450whp f.i on stock pr3's and p72's. so, if you want to waste your money, enjoy.

Dominik

Can anyone suggest a base advance/retard?.....

8.5K

yeah...0, 0

Dominik

From now on, when I need advice, I'll directly Pm your smart ***.

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

ya insult him, thats a good way to get his advice.
I would listen to 8.5K, not mock him, but don't be surprised if he doesn't give your posts the time of day anymore.
Seriously dude, you asked for a good base setting for your cams, and 0,0 is a good base to start with. The best way to dail in adjustable cam gears is on the dyno, bottom line. Or by degreeing the cams, but most people don't even know what that means (not implying that you don't) never mind actually degreeing the cams after installing them.
Start at 0,0 then advance the intake a degree or two, see if that helps, if it does then retard the exhaust cam a degree or two, see if it helps. Keep in mind adjusting your cam gears will change your air/fuel ratio and the AFR might need a little tweaking afterwards. So its common practice to get the AFR down, get the ignition timing good then mess with the cam gears, making sure the AFR is good after each adjustment.

Dominik

It's just recently when ever I post something, he always has to argue. I don't know if he's doing it intentionally because he has something against me or because he's just looking at it from the other perspective. Either way, Im sensing hostility and it's not appreciated. I'm not out to make enemies, I'm new to honda's but not new to the tuning world and making good power. So sorry if my honda newbieness pisses you off. If you need DSM help, I could help you lots in that department.

I know 0,0 is the best to start with, I was looking for people who have run these cams and could atleast suggest which way to work. Honestly, I can't afford A dyno, my *** dyno works good but not good enough. Every person I talk to tells me they gained X amount of hp, but can't remember their settings. Not to say their settings would work for me. I guess I'll just have to see how these cams do, use my *** the best I can.

As for the AFR, good thing I ordered my zeitronix wide band.
As for timing, I don't even know if I have it set right, I can't find the ecu ground in my EF. I just adjust it by the sound of the motor at idle, which is dumb because after every adjustment the ecu will just adjust itself to what I did. I gotta find out how to set the base timing in the EF.

Thanks for the help thus far. Both 8.5K and Zeeman.

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

jump the service connector by the ecu. Its a 2 wire plug thats tucked up under the dash by the ecu.
The zeitronix is a pretty good wideband. I've used both a zeitronix and PLX M300 before. The zeitronix is nice b/c you can log afr, boost and EGT with the software provided and its compatible with crome. And the display is a little easier to see than on the PLX.
If you need tuning done, or help tuning your car yourself feel free to PM me.

8.5K

Edit- forget it. g/l with your project. if you need help making power out of the 16....pm Zeeman. he knows his ****. leave my smart *** alone...

LEITNER

too funny.