rosenberg84

Looking for input from people who have built one before prefferably. I want to make it into a all motor street car and then bottle it at the track with a wet shot. My goals are 220 whp on just the motor and then maybe 260 280 on the bottle.

- Bore it out? yes or no, if so to what?
- Shave the head? or just get the block and head cleaned up with a milling machine.
- What cams?? I believe the combo is a CTR intake cam and ITR exhaust cam.
- What valves, springs and retainers?
- Intake manifold?
- Throttle body?
- Fuel system ie fuel pump, fuel rail, injectors will obviously come with the nitrous kit
- ECU
- pistons?
- rods?
- crank?
- headers? and what diameter exhaust?
- ignition?
- tranny? also i would want a fifth gear that pulls and doesnt flatten out does anyone make gears locally?
- clutch?
- fly wheel?

this is gonna be a all summer build, hoping to get it built for mid to late august. so what should i pick up first to start building? I was thinking finding a block and a naked head and gettin them to Bondi engines to be re worked and then going from there, is that where you all started???

anything i have not mentioned but you feel would be of use to me please let me know.

the engine is going into a EG coupe.

Thanks Trevor

dingus88

well to do what you want your gonna need to have this done:

block sleeved
probobly bigger sleeves for mor edisplacment
wiseco pistons (atleast 11.5:1)
Jun 3's or toda b's either one will do or basic skunk 1's atleast
good springs and retianers
eagle rods
arp hardware thoughout
everythign machined and balanced
b16 head with itr mani
hondata for tuning
itr tranny (or gsr lsd if you don't mind going slower and have better highway cruise)
for all motor exedy race organic is enough but on the bottle you will want a act 2100 with a sprung puck disc


oh and PS this will get closed...

with the jun's you shoudl be around 180-200 easy maybe more with higher compression P&p head adn good tuning

in the end way to much money

Chigga1

both ITR and CTR exhuats cams are the same

rosenberg84

so only two people on this entire board have ever built a ls-vtec i find that hard to believe lol

you say to much money but a 200 whp all motor car will run sooo much nicer then a 300 whp turbo car as you can get on the gas in a all motor car and know what you have to work with a turbo car you gotta lay into hard to get the power out of it, my friends eclipse was at dark nights and import fest and a bunch of other shows, was running 16 pounds daily 20 at the track and is putting 340 to the wheels and i enjoy it but then when you sit in a civic with a h22 in it and feel the car pull all the way through the power band hard, its hard to not want to go all motor

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

we just refuse to waste our time spoonfeeding you information

rosenberg84

I am not asking to be spoon fed information i am asking what has worked for people and what hasnt worked for people. So how would you like to me get the information??? Is it that you dont want to give it up or have never done anything more then bolt parts onto your car and you do not know??? Maybe if I had your bank roll I could do extensive R&D and test every possible combination but when common sense kicks in and says hey why not ask people that have done it I figured it would be a good idea to. Perhaps you have the time to do everything more then once to get it right but I would much rather spend my time building it right the first time.

Trevor

rosenberg84

Ohh and as far as not researching the topic, I have searched all over Honda-tech.com, I also used to work at the Guild of Automotive Restorers in Bradford wich is a world renowned shop for restoration. You ever need a question on Interior, Body work or electronics ask away hell i have 20 000 worth of snap on auto body tools, so you help me here with the information you have, and one day when you need a tool pm me and i will have no problem lending it to you or helping you out. You ever need a paint job I worked with 3 painters that will all paint cars at there own booths for real good deals. So you wanna help, help you dont then dont.

dingus88

what was stated in my post is what you will need to get 250-270 whp..the thign is adding spray limit's your compression to around 11.5:1 max...but if you were to run 12.5:1 - 13:1 with a sleeved 2.0L block with jun 3's and crank girdle and good P&p on head you can do 250-270 whp with good tuning all motor but expect to turn 9500-10 000 rpm's....a ****ty basic setup that is the ****tiest I woudl go is as follow's

itr pistons
b16 head
itr cams
knife edged and balanaced bottom end
apr hardware
dont' turn over 8000 rpm's

you might hit 170-180 whp with good tuning

but it isnt' bullet proof at all so....

basically dont' waste your money and just build a b18c instead....or don't waste your money period cause I doubt you have the kind of cash to build a fast allmotor ls/vtec or b18c cause you ahve to buy the swap first off (4000 $)

then machine block balance knife edge sleeve etc (2000 lests say)

buy parts (1000)

cams (1200)
retainers springs (700)

assembly (1000)

then clutch tuning hondata ect. the list goes on this is ballpark showign you that is cost's alot and 99% of people around dont' have the time and money to do so.....

rosenberg84

I have both, I though do not wont to waste either, in your opinion what should i pick up first? If i pick up the block bottom end I can have it rebuilt through a shop that I am friends with the owner, he has everything there to do what I want.

Trevor

dingus88

dont' waste your time ls vtec...just do up a b18c

unless your gonna goes ***** out with crank girdle sleeved rods pistons huge cams...stay to a b18c with itr internals skunk 2 mani and some good cams will get you close to 200 whp, and is a proven setup adn not to pricey either....leitner si the shop if your going sleeves and might aswell do a built b20 with sleeves if your going all the way

Chigga1

here is a link on the LS/VTEC build. the same price of a TYPE R basically

this link was posted by KANGAROD: good read... make u aware of whats needed..

The Cost of LsVtec
In the last few days many people have asked me, “What the best performance upgrade for their 88-91 (EF style chassis) is?” That is without a doubt the addition of another camshaft and variable valve timing (with electronic lift control) known only by its street name, the infamous B16. B16’s are cheap and plentiful and for many a weekend racer is the best first step. This is well documented around the Internet, and cost is somewhere in the neighbourhood of around $3000 installed. As I said, I’ve found this to be more than sufficiently documented on the Internet, but if anyone has any specific questions about it, feel free to ask. The 2nd, and more important question is; “What comes next?” For most people they like to drag race their motors. In drag, torque is key (after suspension and tire upgrades), and torque is what the B16 lacks, and cannot be found in the stock bottom end. The solution lies in the addition of the bottom end found in the 90-01 Integra LS, RS, or GS or one off SE. The B18A (found in the cable operated clutch applications years 90 – 93) is a much more suitable candidate mainly because of cost. Their high km’s, and vintage make them much more plentiful in scrap yards and garages, and thus bring down the cost. Since rebuilding is something I would strongly recommend, km’s are a bit of a non-issue. The B18B (found in the newer hydraulic operated clutch applications years 94-01) also features a different style PCV valve which differentiates from the VTEC motors and the earlier generation of B18 motors making it more difficult (all be it, still possible) to integrate on to the VTEC head. B18A’s can easily be found locally in the $500 range, and have been known to go as cheaply as $100 for a short block in decent shape. Other than your B16 (which you should already have) that is your biggest cost. Since cost is the primary concern for most people I’ve decided to break it down with as many specifics as possible. Things with a variable price, I’ve listed with a variable price (as you’ve seen), but will try to keep it as specific as possible from this point on. The first thing we must understand is the weak points on the Ls bottom end. These are

The rod bolts: LsVtec had a reputation ****** that it was an unreliable build. This is mostly because of cut corners on the part of the builder, but can be linked back to the rod bolts. The most important upgrade, and only one I would deem necessary is the addition of ARP rod bolts (part number 208-6401 for Honda 1.2L – 1.8L) which retail for $79.99. The will also need to be pressed in by a machine shop, I paid $42.50 to have mine done.

skilled individuals can do this on their own although some specialty tools are needed since some precision is required.

The pistons: Ls bottom ends have dish style pistons which actually add 3.2 cc to the combustion chamber, and would yield a compression ratio of 9.55:1 with a stock B16 head. This is bad for NA applications because compression is what makes your power. This can be remedied by the reuse of your stock PR3 pistons (the pistons which came from your B16) that push out a total of 6.01 cc from the chamber size (a difference of 9.21 cc) for a compression ratio of 11.33:1 on the same set-up. That is what I would recommend, unless price wasn’t a major concern. That would come out to a total cost of about $50 to have the pistons pressed off and pressed on to the new rods. If cost weren’t as big a concern I’d recommend a set of PCT (Civic Type R pistons) that would displace a total of 8.63 cc, and yield a compression ratio of 12.03:1 (if used in standard .25mm oversize). If oversize pistons were used, you of course would need new pistons which retail in the range of $200-$250. You will also need new piston rings that will cost $140. You will need the block honed over. Any competent machine shop should be able to do this for $80. As well, 1 mm will need to be shaved from each side of the connection rod, to allow the pistons (CTR) to fit. I was charged $55.80 for this procedure.

The harmonics:GsR and Type R (comparable factory set-ups) come stock with a crank girdle. This is basically a piece of metal with sits across the 3 centre main caps, and keeps the crank from doing The Macarena at 8000 rpm. You can either machine a stock GsR or Type R one to fit (if you can find one, they are un usually rare because they cannot be bought new, they only come with the entire block assembly) or can purchase a new one from Z10 Engineering (http://www.z10eng.com/products.cfm) for $229.99 American. This upgrade is not necessary, but highly recommended. Since you will be changing the specifications of your bottom end you will need to purchase a new oil pickup (part no: 15220-P72-000, retail: $53.98), a new windage tray (part no: 11221-P72-000, retail: $48.65), 4 new outer main cap bolts (part no: 90007-P75-003, retail: 4 @ $5.20/piece) and 6 new inner main cap bolts (part no: 90007-PAA-T01, retail: 6 @ $6.30/piece), 6 dowel pins to hold the girdle in place (part no: 90715-PC6-000, retail: 6 @ $2.20/piece) and machining the girdle / main caps to accept the dowel pins ($90).

The use of the girdle is questionable if you are on a budget, more important is getting the rotating mass balanced

Now that we have gotten rid of the weaknesses, there are a few things that you will need to change on the head to allow it to accept the non-vtec block. The two big things you would need to change will be the oil hole in the head. It will be to be tapped and plugged which will cost ballpark $12. As well, we will need to have two dowel pin holes drilled out, to accept the standard placement of the dowel pins on the Ls block / Ls head gasket (part no: 12251-PR4-004, retail: $95.56), this procedure will cost $35. Finally (since we tapped and plugged the oil hole in the head) we will need to bring the oil to the head another way. Many people craft their own using the lines and plugs for less than $20. I prefer the custom made kits found on the Internet (like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...item=2435019017) which retail for approximately $80 American. It is one less thing for you to worry about, which is always nice. There we have it. Short of assembling the motor (which will cost about $500 if you don’t do it yourself) we have a total cost of just shy of $5000 (including the cost of the B16). This will more than be sufficient for beating most Mustangs, F-bodies, J-Bodies, Turbo GP’s, old man cars, Tiburons, MR2’s, turbo Dodges, lowered trucks, D-series, and some FD’s that the streets of Winnipeg will throw at you. This does not include the cost of buying new rebuilt parts, which I would recommend to most people, but will significantly increase the cost of the whole operation. I’ll break it down as briefly as possible:
Plastigage - $2.82, rebuild lube - $ 5.27, bearings - $220, timing belt - $94.86 (14400-p72-014), oil pump - $164.99 (15100-P72-A01), water pump - $125.22 (19200-P72-013), head bolts – 10 @ $13.**/piece (90006-P72-003), upper end gasket kit - $198.58 (06110-P73-A03, you can sell the extra VTEC head gasket you will get with this one for around $50), lower end gasket kit - $78.42 (061B1-PR4-A01), throttle body gasket - $5.57 (16176-P73-004), outer cam cap bolts –15 @ $1.52 / piece (95701-0805000), inner cam cap bolts – 4 @ $6.78 /piece(90014-PR3-000) and finally new flywheel bolts – 8 @ $3.30 / piece (90011-PH3-000) which would bring our total costs to around $6000. Not cheap by a long shot, but speed does cost money. The only question is; how fast do you want to go?

If you have patience most of the cost can be cut down buy shopping around. Remember, you’re not limited to OEM parts. For example a set of ACL race bearings sell for $177.00 and are arguably better than OEM bearings which sell for $220.00.

rosenberg84

Chigga, Thank you very much for that post, that is what I was figuring it would cost when I priced everything out on my own but there are always the unknowns and it seems that the guy who wrote that artical I think has covered about 90 percent of them.

Well I now begin the purchasing and long hours in the garage, I will purchase a digital camera and document the process and perhaps make a sticky post with it when all said in done so anyone else interested in doing it wont have to ask the same questions I did. I will also keep a excel spreadsheet with all the costs layyed out for anyone with financial restrictions.

Trevor

Chigga1

Good boy man...

yes that is about 90-95% of a correct LS/VTEC build good luck.
and post lots of pics.

lates

rosenberg84

I will take pics of everything that requires you to turn a wrench pretty much and try and make like a step by step how to article, I am hoping to have this project all done and in the car by the last week in august i will also be doing the suspension and the rest of the car during that period so i will post pics of that too.

vbphreak

In order to get the NA hp output you are looking for from the LSV, you need a high comp. Can be accomplished in a few ways.

- CTR pistons (WARNING: approx 12.5:1) not very streetable unless running Hondata, Uberdata. , etc.
- mill the head (max 0.030) should not be done if using CTR pistons
- thinner head gasket

Juicing with a high comp engine is possible but high chances of KABOOM!

I suggest you get the block and send it to a machine shop for the following:

- hot tank
- bore .25 over & hone
- balance the whole rotating assembly
- install a gsr block girdle
- for streetable comp ration use either P30/PR3 pistons

when assembling put new everything (gaskets, belts,bearings,etc.)

for the head:

-clean new guides
-P&P
-Stage2/3 cams
-new valvesprings (Ferrea,Skunk,etc)

And get an engine management Hondata or something. There's more info out there. TUNE! TUNE!

I was going to do it but decided on something else. Sold off most of the parts. only thing remaining now is a VTEC head already plugged.

Good luck and hope I helped.

dingus88

^^^well that setup wont' be able to rev enough to take advantage of any aggressive cams...these buidl's are cheesy and will pop easy adn not make anymore than a mild b18c

you need rods pistons huge cams sleeved or atleast block guard adn crank girdle atleast 12:1 compression and hondata...that is the only way to do a good ls/vtec setup that makes god reliable all motor power

Chigga1

and just b/c your building a LS/VTEC i would definately still rev happy and not to 9200RPM since the bottom end was not to take that kind of punishment.

if it becomes a headache.
buy a GSR and stroke the biatch

vbphreak

You can rev LSVs past 8000 rpms as long as it's built right and it's balanced properly. Just don't misshift but that goes for all motors. Granted that this engine will not last you as long as other VTEC engines if revved that high constantly. But who goes up to 8K everyday anyways ???

Another thing you could get is a B17 crank. I've read somewhere that it's suppose to give you a better RS ratio.

vbphreak

http://www.b20vtec.com/frontpage.html
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=149694
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=263598
http://www.geocities.com/whiterabbit...r.html#Service
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/lsvtec/2019.html
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/lsvtec/lsvtec2a.html

A really good read:
http://www.phatwhippincrx.20m.com/custom4.html

1sloweg

I do, its fine. If its built properly and maintained properly u have nothign to worryh about.

As for b17 crank, dont use it, you will totally opose the whole LSVTEC theory. You use the ls crank because it has a longer stroke which yeilds more torque.

Please stop feeding people wrong information, dont talk if you dont know.