Ls Vtec
15-Mar-2007, 05:25 PM
#21
I think the difference in our statements comes from the fact you consider several years a good life for an engine, whereas Honda and I agree that an engine should last 15 years or more. When building an engine to run hard for that many years, extra cost is involved. That's prolly the only difference. Oh yeah, and I haven't checked, but you corrected me on the bore/stroke on the B20... I dunno who's right, I guess I just always assumed the extra displacement came from an increase in stroke rather than bore. Seems you're right though... but at the same time thinner cylinder walls in what is basically a B18B block bored out would lead to greater cylinder wall deflection and shorter life at extreme RPM. Unless you posted the block, sleeved it, or used one of those block guards. While I'm sure many people do it with little or no problems, I wouldn't do it. Also, the high rpm VTEC engines from Honda use oil squirters... one more reason why I say the GSR is superior. I'd rather spend money on a GSR, and do bolt ons and tuning with it to get 200 hp, as opposed using the same budget to build an LSVTEC.
15-Mar-2007, 05:29 PM
#22
BTW, I don't consider this an argument or anything... this is an excellent exchange of practical vs. theoretical information, the practical being, well it works... the theoretical being, it works but why and for how long.
15-Mar-2007, 06:30 PM
#23
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 88
WOW~~ I love those information,
thanks first.
I guess there is quite few more techincal points that I couldnt following, for example, I couldn't really see how a does it will decrease the life of the engine with proper tunning. ( It's not that I am disgree. Its more like that I don't have enough knowledge to see it)
I personally, already have a b16a2 in my bar, ( zeeman has seen it, a yellow civic. I went to him to get a stock program a week ago. By the way, it does show a better fuel economic. I used to have 10.3/L now I have like 12.X/L, )
I personally thinks that zeeman and bbar are really clear on their point, and I agree with them either way
thanks first.
I guess there is quite few more techincal points that I couldnt following, for example, I couldn't really see how a does it will decrease the life of the engine with proper tunning. ( It's not that I am disgree. Its more like that I don't have enough knowledge to see it)
I personally, already have a b16a2 in my bar, ( zeeman has seen it, a yellow civic. I went to him to get a stock program a week ago. By the way, it does show a better fuel economic. I used to have 10.3/L now I have like 12.X/L, )
I personally thinks that zeeman and bbar are really clear on their point, and I agree with them either way
15-Mar-2007, 08:06 PM
#24
ANY engine that puts out more than stock horsepower isn't gunna last as long as a stock engine....be it a b16, itr, gsr, h22, chevy 350, ford windsor, etc etc.
However, my engine for example, is built (the top end, fully) and i've got over 40,000kms on it, and trust me its seen its abuse. But gets regular (ok more than regular) maintainance and almost tri-yearly valve lash adjustments and inspections. I've had this engine built the way it is for over 2 years now. I do realize its not putting out double the power than stock, but a whole bunch more than stock.
I agree, from a technical standpoint, the GSR/ITR blocks are superior to the LS/B20 blocks....this is for a few reasons. The girlde on the 2-3-4 main caps, the better oil and water pump, the oil squirters, the factory oil cooler, the internal vtec oil feed system, and an all around better rod/stroke ratio for high RPM stability (where gsr/itr engines make good power).
But in terms of making power, they're not at all superior to the LS/B20s...only in stock form, but personally, i'd take a B20vtec or even lsvtec for that matter over a GSR, maybe not ITR, but definately over the GSR. The torque from the longer stroke of the LS crank makes the powerband (specifically the torque curve) much more broad and lets face it, thats what you really want on a street car. Its not so much peak WHP as the powerband/torque curve.
I'd rather have a b20vtec that makes 180whp and 150ft/lbs than a GSR that makes 190whp and 130ft/lbs. This is b/c the B20vtec at lower to midrange rpms will be making much more torque than the GSR....this is sort of hard to explain without dyno sheets. But basically the car with more torque (or low end power) won't need to be revved to **** to be fun, thus less stress on the engine since you don't see the high RPMs as often as you would on a car that only makes good power at 5000-8000rpms (like the GSR/ITRs). But you jack the power output of an engine up and there is going to be more stress on the engine period, doesn't matter what engine.
Now take a LS crank and rods and put it into the GSR, now you've got the best of both worlds, well sort of. Its a OEM stroker setup, at the expense of having to remove or bend the oil squirters up a bit so the crank doesn't smoke them. The thing you have to realize, when it comes to making power there is ALWAYS a compromise. If you wanna make awesome power from 6000-9000rpms your low end and midrange will suffer a bit. If you wanna have an engine that has a broad torque curve and good low rpm and midrange power your gunna sacrifice top end power and stability a little bit....there are a few things you can do about this however, such as balance the rotating assembly up to whatever rpm you desire, use ARP hardware (rod bolts, main studs and head studs) and/or lighten the rotating assembly (forged internals). But again, if the cam you chose is designed to make killer mad jdm vtak powa than its not gunna make as much power down low....and vice versa.
This thread makes me wanna finish my lsvtec project so bad, but i just spent a good chunk of change on the new drum set i bought...woot.
However, my engine for example, is built (the top end, fully) and i've got over 40,000kms on it, and trust me its seen its abuse. But gets regular (ok more than regular) maintainance and almost tri-yearly valve lash adjustments and inspections. I've had this engine built the way it is for over 2 years now. I do realize its not putting out double the power than stock, but a whole bunch more than stock.
I agree, from a technical standpoint, the GSR/ITR blocks are superior to the LS/B20 blocks....this is for a few reasons. The girlde on the 2-3-4 main caps, the better oil and water pump, the oil squirters, the factory oil cooler, the internal vtec oil feed system, and an all around better rod/stroke ratio for high RPM stability (where gsr/itr engines make good power).
But in terms of making power, they're not at all superior to the LS/B20s...only in stock form, but personally, i'd take a B20vtec or even lsvtec for that matter over a GSR, maybe not ITR, but definately over the GSR. The torque from the longer stroke of the LS crank makes the powerband (specifically the torque curve) much more broad and lets face it, thats what you really want on a street car. Its not so much peak WHP as the powerband/torque curve.
I'd rather have a b20vtec that makes 180whp and 150ft/lbs than a GSR that makes 190whp and 130ft/lbs. This is b/c the B20vtec at lower to midrange rpms will be making much more torque than the GSR....this is sort of hard to explain without dyno sheets. But basically the car with more torque (or low end power) won't need to be revved to **** to be fun, thus less stress on the engine since you don't see the high RPMs as often as you would on a car that only makes good power at 5000-8000rpms (like the GSR/ITRs). But you jack the power output of an engine up and there is going to be more stress on the engine period, doesn't matter what engine.
Now take a LS crank and rods and put it into the GSR, now you've got the best of both worlds, well sort of. Its a OEM stroker setup, at the expense of having to remove or bend the oil squirters up a bit so the crank doesn't smoke them. The thing you have to realize, when it comes to making power there is ALWAYS a compromise. If you wanna make awesome power from 6000-9000rpms your low end and midrange will suffer a bit. If you wanna have an engine that has a broad torque curve and good low rpm and midrange power your gunna sacrifice top end power and stability a little bit....there are a few things you can do about this however, such as balance the rotating assembly up to whatever rpm you desire, use ARP hardware (rod bolts, main studs and head studs) and/or lighten the rotating assembly (forged internals). But again, if the cam you chose is designed to make killer mad jdm vtak powa than its not gunna make as much power down low....and vice versa.
This thread makes me wanna finish my lsvtec project so bad, but i just spent a good chunk of change on the new drum set i bought...woot.
15-Mar-2007, 11:29 PM
#26
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Eastcoast
Posts: 340
just a few things...
Stock rad works fine well past double stock hp i never even came close to over heating in the summer in traffic with my setup, ive also been to the track when close friends of mine (making 100+ hp more than me) were running the 1/4 all day with no heating issues...stock rad. A higher cfm fan is a nice investment though it will help pull though the air that an IC can block.
And GSR/ITR oiling system great in stock form, not needed/desirable with a boosted forged internal motor.
$6K for a built motor is easy to see IMO
by built im including sleeves(one of the biggest $ impacts), forged internals, valvetrain(not nessacarrly p&p) all new pumps gaskets, fuel system...and then depending on boost or NA, all the other needed gear.
Stock rad works fine well past double stock hp i never even came close to over heating in the summer in traffic with my setup, ive also been to the track when close friends of mine (making 100+ hp more than me) were running the 1/4 all day with no heating issues...stock rad. A higher cfm fan is a nice investment though it will help pull though the air that an IC can block.
And GSR/ITR oiling system great in stock form, not needed/desirable with a boosted forged internal motor.
$6K for a built motor is easy to see IMO
by built im including sleeves(one of the biggest $ impacts), forged internals, valvetrain(not nessacarrly p&p) all new pumps gaskets, fuel system...and then depending on boost or NA, all the other needed gear.
16-Mar-2007, 01:21 AM
#27
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Niagara Falls
Posts: 899
although i have not nearly as much knowledge on here compared to barb/zeeman/brian and others...
for the buck....
a b16 with a half decent turbo setup with a good tune for 6g-ish seems to be the better bang for the buck.
then again, im a bit of a boost *****...na is nice and all..but....i dunno...i feel my cash is better spent on boost..
6g for na...200hp-ish... 6g-ish on boost....hrmm...tough call (not)
for the buck....
a b16 with a half decent turbo setup with a good tune for 6g-ish seems to be the better bang for the buck.
then again, im a bit of a boost *****...na is nice and all..but....i dunno...i feel my cash is better spent on boost..
6g for na...200hp-ish... 6g-ish on boost....hrmm...tough call (not)
16-Mar-2007, 02:45 AM
#28
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Streetsville/ Hamilton
Posts: 2,877
Originally posted by zeeman
ANY engine that puts out more than stock horsepower isn't gunna last as long as a stock engine....be it a b16, itr, gsr, h22, chevy 350, ford windsor, etc etc.
However, my engine for example, is built (the top end, fully) and i've got over 40,000kms on it, and trust me its seen its abuse. But gets regular (ok more than regular) maintainance and almost tri-yearly valve lash adjustments and inspections. I've had this engine built the way it is for over 2 years now. I do realize its not putting out double the power than stock, but a whole bunch more than stock.
I agree, from a technical standpoint, the GSR/ITR blocks are superior to the LS/B20 blocks....this is for a few reasons. The girlde on the 2-3-4 main caps, the better oil and water pump, the oil squirters, the factory oil cooler, the internal vtec oil feed system, and an all around better rod/stroke ratio for high RPM stability (where gsr/itr engines make good power).
But in terms of making power, they're not at all superior to the LS/B20s...only in stock form, but personally, i'd take a B20vtec or even lsvtec for that matter over a GSR, maybe not ITR, but definately over the GSR. The torque from the longer stroke of the LS crank makes the powerband (specifically the torque curve) much more broad and lets face it, thats what you really want on a street car. Its not so much peak WHP as the powerband/torque curve.
I'd rather have a b20vtec that makes 180whp and 150ft/lbs than a GSR that makes 190whp and 130ft/lbs. This is b/c the B20vtec at lower to midrange rpms will be making much more torque than the GSR....this is sort of hard to explain without dyno sheets. But basically the car with more torque (or low end power) won't need to be revved to **** to be fun, thus less stress on the engine since you don't see the high RPMs as often as you would on a car that only makes good power at 5000-8000rpms (like the GSR/ITRs). But you jack the power output of an engine up and there is going to be more stress on the engine period, doesn't matter what engine.
Now take a LS crank and rods and put it into the GSR, now you've got the best of both worlds, well sort of. Its a OEM stroker setup, at the expense of having to remove or bend the oil squirters up a bit so the crank doesn't smoke them. The thing you have to realize, when it comes to making power there is ALWAYS a compromise. If you wanna make awesome power from 6000-9000rpms your low end and midrange will suffer a bit. If you wanna have an engine that has a broad torque curve and good low rpm and midrange power your gunna sacrifice top end power and stability a little bit....there are a few things you can do about this however, such as balance the rotating assembly up to whatever rpm you desire, use ARP hardware (rod bolts, main studs and head studs) and/or lighten the rotating assembly (forged internals). But again, if the cam you chose is designed to make killer mad jdm vtak powa than its not gunna make as much power down low....and vice versa.
This thread makes me wanna finish my lsvtec project so bad, but i just spent a good chunk of change on the new drum set i bought...woot.
ANY engine that puts out more than stock horsepower isn't gunna last as long as a stock engine....be it a b16, itr, gsr, h22, chevy 350, ford windsor, etc etc.
However, my engine for example, is built (the top end, fully) and i've got over 40,000kms on it, and trust me its seen its abuse. But gets regular (ok more than regular) maintainance and almost tri-yearly valve lash adjustments and inspections. I've had this engine built the way it is for over 2 years now. I do realize its not putting out double the power than stock, but a whole bunch more than stock.
I agree, from a technical standpoint, the GSR/ITR blocks are superior to the LS/B20 blocks....this is for a few reasons. The girlde on the 2-3-4 main caps, the better oil and water pump, the oil squirters, the factory oil cooler, the internal vtec oil feed system, and an all around better rod/stroke ratio for high RPM stability (where gsr/itr engines make good power).
But in terms of making power, they're not at all superior to the LS/B20s...only in stock form, but personally, i'd take a B20vtec or even lsvtec for that matter over a GSR, maybe not ITR, but definately over the GSR. The torque from the longer stroke of the LS crank makes the powerband (specifically the torque curve) much more broad and lets face it, thats what you really want on a street car. Its not so much peak WHP as the powerband/torque curve.
I'd rather have a b20vtec that makes 180whp and 150ft/lbs than a GSR that makes 190whp and 130ft/lbs. This is b/c the B20vtec at lower to midrange rpms will be making much more torque than the GSR....this is sort of hard to explain without dyno sheets. But basically the car with more torque (or low end power) won't need to be revved to **** to be fun, thus less stress on the engine since you don't see the high RPMs as often as you would on a car that only makes good power at 5000-8000rpms (like the GSR/ITRs). But you jack the power output of an engine up and there is going to be more stress on the engine period, doesn't matter what engine.
Now take a LS crank and rods and put it into the GSR, now you've got the best of both worlds, well sort of. Its a OEM stroker setup, at the expense of having to remove or bend the oil squirters up a bit so the crank doesn't smoke them. The thing you have to realize, when it comes to making power there is ALWAYS a compromise. If you wanna make awesome power from 6000-9000rpms your low end and midrange will suffer a bit. If you wanna have an engine that has a broad torque curve and good low rpm and midrange power your gunna sacrifice top end power and stability a little bit....there are a few things you can do about this however, such as balance the rotating assembly up to whatever rpm you desire, use ARP hardware (rod bolts, main studs and head studs) and/or lighten the rotating assembly (forged internals). But again, if the cam you chose is designed to make killer mad jdm vtak powa than its not gunna make as much power down low....and vice versa.
This thread makes me wanna finish my lsvtec project so bad, but i just spent a good chunk of change on the new drum set i bought...woot.
Not to hijack...But what drumset did you get? Sonor, Tama, Ludwig?
16-Mar-2007, 06:18 AM
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 227
I agree that turbo will make much more whp over any n/a setu[ but then again it will take a turbo builder much more whp to beat a n/a setup
example: turbo builder will need 300whp to beat a 220whp all motor setup down the quater mile.
as for what zeeman said is good information, but the point that were trying to get accross is that b20/vtec or ls/vtec is the best bang for the buck compared to those expensive itr and gsr blocks.
Id take tourqe over whp anyday and anytime.
example: turbo builder will need 300whp to beat a 220whp all motor setup down the quater mile.
as for what zeeman said is good information, but the point that were trying to get accross is that b20/vtec or ls/vtec is the best bang for the buck compared to those expensive itr and gsr blocks.
Id take tourqe over whp anyday and anytime.
16-Mar-2007, 07:54 AM
#30
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: At your moms
Posts: 2,633
i still find it funny that everyone thinks that the extra 1.5mm stroke on the b20 makes that big of a difference...it doesnt....i would also say a good b20/vtec should cost close to $6000 and that the b18c/c5 big bore are the way to go not the non vtec engines.
16-Mar-2007, 10:25 AM
#31
its not so much the stroke of the b20 that makes the difference as the displacement.
But from my experiences tuning cars on the dyno, i can say with the LS or b20vtecs the torque curve is a lot broader, makes more torque down low and can make the same power up top as the GSR/ITR (maybe not to 9000 like the gsr/itr can sing to).
I think everyone realizes were not talking like a 50ft/lbs difference in torque here.
But personally, i haven't seen too many n/a GSR's push over 150ft/lbs of torque....b20vtecs...now thats a different story.
Please don't post up someones $10,000 GSR build from honda tech.
$6000 on an engine build will definately not last long. But to build a LSvtec $6K would be a little extreme. Although not really i guess, b/c i've got $3000 into my head and $2000 into the LS block i'm building, now if you had to pay someone for labour/assembly you'd hit the $6K mark pretty quick. But this is a fully built engine...something not necessarily needed when going b20vtec (for the average street car).
B20z block, ITR head, good bolt-ons, nice clutch/flywheel and a solid tune will yeild close to 200whp (from my experiences)....well under $6000, awesome power from 2500-8000rpms
SilverSleeper:
I went with a new set from Pearl
But from my experiences tuning cars on the dyno, i can say with the LS or b20vtecs the torque curve is a lot broader, makes more torque down low and can make the same power up top as the GSR/ITR (maybe not to 9000 like the gsr/itr can sing to).
I think everyone realizes were not talking like a 50ft/lbs difference in torque here.
But personally, i haven't seen too many n/a GSR's push over 150ft/lbs of torque....b20vtecs...now thats a different story.
Please don't post up someones $10,000 GSR build from honda tech.
$6000 on an engine build will definately not last long. But to build a LSvtec $6K would be a little extreme. Although not really i guess, b/c i've got $3000 into my head and $2000 into the LS block i'm building, now if you had to pay someone for labour/assembly you'd hit the $6K mark pretty quick. But this is a fully built engine...something not necessarily needed when going b20vtec (for the average street car).
B20z block, ITR head, good bolt-ons, nice clutch/flywheel and a solid tune will yeild close to 200whp (from my experiences)....well under $6000, awesome power from 2500-8000rpms
SilverSleeper:
I went with a new set from Pearl
16-Mar-2007, 01:57 PM
#33
what you're trying to explain zeeman, with the torque curves and all that... in technical terms it's called the area under the curve. the area under the curve that is larger (even though it has a lower peak) when geared properly will produce better results than an engine with a higher peak but lower overall area under the curve. this is because the area indicates (partially) how quickly an engine will rev up and get to the sweet spot of the powerband. so yes, you are correct in that an LS VTEC or B20VTEC would have a greater area under the curve, but I still believe you are giving up a lot in terms of technology that was meant for the DOHC VTEC blocks. you've mentioned a few key features already, and there are others as well... like the tranny gearing, manifold design, etc... the non-VTEC B series are still economy blocks, compared to the performance blocks that are DOHC VTECs.
HOWEVER, given the fact the car in question already has a B16A swap done, all the guy needs to do is get a b20 block, prep it for VTEC, and put it all together, and tune it... so it's really a no-brainer in this case. It's prolly the most value-oriented way for him to build more N/A power. If we were talking about a build from scratch, I'd still recommend an ITR or GSR swap...
HOWEVER, given the fact the car in question already has a B16A swap done, all the guy needs to do is get a b20 block, prep it for VTEC, and put it all together, and tune it... so it's really a no-brainer in this case. It's prolly the most value-oriented way for him to build more N/A power. If we were talking about a build from scratch, I'd still recommend an ITR or GSR swap...
16-Mar-2007, 02:19 PM
#35
well say you're gettin a swap from scratch, pay $4000 for a full nice ITR swap, you're getting 195 or 205 hp, limited slip diff, nicer gearing, superior block, and honda reliability. no headaches, no problems, minimal downtime. I think that's sweet.
16-Mar-2007, 02:46 PM
#38
ya, what C5's put down in stock form my b16 puts down, but with a little more torque from the added displacement.
What you're saying about the manifold design and tranny gearing isn't really a valid point IMO, simply b/c if you're doing a LS or b20vtec then you're using the superior designed VTEC manifold that comes with the VTEC head and MOST people use a b16/gsr/itr tranny with their b20vtecs anyways. Besides, honestly, my buddys b20vtec has a LS tranny (he had a GSR in there before but uses it as his daily driver/winter beater to get to oakville and back from hamilton everyday for work, so he likes the lower rpms on the highway of the LS longer geared tranny) and the LS tranny doesn't really hold back the power too much with the longer gears. This is b/c its a 2L so the torque and low end power it has makes up for the longer gears, and its not so important for it to get up in the higher rpms super fast (like with the DOHC VTEC engines) so a super short geared, close ratio tranny like the VTEC counterpart has isn't as important IMO.
Hell, i'd take his stock b20vtec with LS tranny over my built b16 setup anyday, makes me sick to think what he's spent and how much power he's making compared to my b16 setup (shakes fist).
Bruno, you explained exactly what i was trying to explain (about area under the curve) a lot clearer than i did...lol.
And i do agree 100% that the DOHC VTEC blocks are more performance orientated compared to the economy ls/b20 blocks. But with that being said, if you had to buy a GSR/ITR longblock you'd be dishing out a hell of a lot more cash than for a LS/B20 longblock....you can grab a b20 from tiger japanese for like $550 nowadays....you can't even really find a b16 for that cheap.
And for $4000 you can easily do a b20vtec setup with an ITR head and tranny to get all of those nice features (well almost) that you would with the ITR swap.
A couple of years ago you'd be hard pressed to find an ITR swap for $4000 though, more like $5000-5500.
What you're saying about the manifold design and tranny gearing isn't really a valid point IMO, simply b/c if you're doing a LS or b20vtec then you're using the superior designed VTEC manifold that comes with the VTEC head and MOST people use a b16/gsr/itr tranny with their b20vtecs anyways. Besides, honestly, my buddys b20vtec has a LS tranny (he had a GSR in there before but uses it as his daily driver/winter beater to get to oakville and back from hamilton everyday for work, so he likes the lower rpms on the highway of the LS longer geared tranny) and the LS tranny doesn't really hold back the power too much with the longer gears. This is b/c its a 2L so the torque and low end power it has makes up for the longer gears, and its not so important for it to get up in the higher rpms super fast (like with the DOHC VTEC engines) so a super short geared, close ratio tranny like the VTEC counterpart has isn't as important IMO.
Hell, i'd take his stock b20vtec with LS tranny over my built b16 setup anyday, makes me sick to think what he's spent and how much power he's making compared to my b16 setup (shakes fist).
Bruno, you explained exactly what i was trying to explain (about area under the curve) a lot clearer than i did...lol.
And i do agree 100% that the DOHC VTEC blocks are more performance orientated compared to the economy ls/b20 blocks. But with that being said, if you had to buy a GSR/ITR longblock you'd be dishing out a hell of a lot more cash than for a LS/B20 longblock....you can grab a b20 from tiger japanese for like $550 nowadays....you can't even really find a b16 for that cheap.
And for $4000 you can easily do a b20vtec setup with an ITR head and tranny to get all of those nice features (well almost) that you would with the ITR swap.
A couple of years ago you'd be hard pressed to find an ITR swap for $4000 though, more like $5000-5500.
16-Mar-2007, 03:30 PM
#39
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Posts: 1,961
Originally posted by trigga
Personally ill propally be up in the 7000-8000 dollar range when im done and should propally yield 230whp but that also includes me destroying a block.
Personally ill propally be up in the 7000-8000 dollar range when im done and should propally yield 230whp but that also includes me destroying a block.
.....
that's a k swap right there already. 7-8k is rediculous for a n/a b swap.
