imported_littleyellow

I have seen the words
LS VTEC all around.
I know it is compose of VTEC HEAD with
integra bottom, eg, B16a bead (cam valve......) and B18 bottom ( piston, rod.....)

My question is what does it do?
Does it increase the displacement?

is it that the main objective of LS VTEC is to increse the displacement

On the other hand, if I put a B20 bottom, and a b16a head together, will it output more power or torque.

I am just wondering?
because I saw people selling B20, so I am just curious

thanks

imported_littleyellow

To add a question to it.
The piston from difference displacement B series engine can't interchange right, because bore and stroke is different,
haha
Question seems stupid, but I just want to confirm it
thanks

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

displacement is determined by the bore and stroke of the bottom end. head does nothing to determine displacement. combusion chamber volume of the head only determines burn qualities (mixture distribution) and compression ratio. the shape of the piston also contributes to the combustion chamber volume/properties since it forms the 'floor' of teh combustion chamber.

the main objective of LS VTEC is to give VTEC to poor people who can't afford a superior GSR. Also, the B16A heads are known for having better flow characteristics than a GSR head. That's why a GSR bottom end with a B16A3 or A2 head is known as a poor man's type R.

the B20 block obviously offers greater displacement, to the tune of about 200 cc's. it does so at the expense of the rod/stroke ratio, putting the pistons at more extreme angles to the cylinder walls, increasing stress on the block and related reciprocating assembly components. this means you just shouldn't spin it up to 8000+ rpm where VTEC really shines... so the trade off is lower RPM vs. more displacement. will it offer more torque or power... that depends on your build, your cam specifications, VTEC cross over point, computer tuning, piston design, etc.... there are many things to consider. the stock bottom end shouldn't go past 7200 rpm if you wanna have it last longer than a few months, so a VTEC head would almost be wasted on an unbuilt block. But a build would cost you upwards of six grand if you wanna do it somewhat right....

so you wanna go fast... how much money you got?

imported_360_vortex

i thought you were too hungry to type a story ^^

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

I was, I typed that with one hand whilest quenching my nutritional needs the question was too good to pass up... spun bearing is just plain and unfortunate.

imported_djtrini

bbarbulo Knows what he is saying. Pretty close on price too.

want a strong b20 vtec?

b16 head complete you can get for $600 with distributor

B20b Longblock you can get at most japanese import places for $600

Golden Eagle Complete LS/b20 Vtec kit you can buy for Less than $500.
Includes: headstuds, head gasket, oil sandwich adapter, fittings, oil line for vtec etc.. Complete Kit for your vtec conversion.

ARP Rod Bolts $120?

ARP MainStuds $100, Not 100% necessary but still a good investment I find.

Pistons: RC machines Type R spec 84.5 MM (11:1 comp ratio) $350

Type R oil Pump, water Pump and Timing belt. OEM Honda $350ish

310 cc injectors or bigger (rc injectors $300), Prelude Injectors work well. (345cc) Can be had for around $75

Header: (Stock wont cut it)
DC sports: $300
Megan Racing $300
OEM Type R 4-1 $400
Toda $700
Rage and more higher end headers $900+++

Fuel Pump (optional) Walbro 255lph $150

valvetrain (optional)
Full Omni Power Valvetrain $700 (valves, springs, retainers)
Ferrea Racing valvetrain $850ish (valves, springs, retainers)
Skunk2 Valvetrain $750ish (valves, springs, retainers)

Cams (Optional)
Type R/Civic Type R $3-400
Skunk2 $700ish
RM (rocket motorsports) $650ish
Toda B's or C's $900 ++

Engine Assembly:
You providing all the parts above, Many of the TCC affliates and a few other machine shops will assemble a LS/B20 VTEC Head and bottem end, machinging, boring and honing w/ assembly for around $800.

Atleast that is what it has cost me and a few friends in the few i've put together personally.

Motor Installation:
Most of any Mechanic shops even affiliates on TCC Charge roughly $500 ++ to do a swap.

TUNING (100% A MUST)
Most TCC affliates as well as some members of the TCC board offer tuning services. Ranging from around $300 and up. Deffinately a Key role in having a healthy running reliable Motor. Not to mention Maximizing your engines performance Potential.


Motor Build GRAND TOTAL: (build including components)
Head: $600
B20 longblock:$600
Golden Eagle LS/b20 Vtec kit $500
RC Machines Pistons: $350
ARP Main Studs: $100
ARP Rod Bolts: $120
OEM Honda Type R Oil Pump, water Pump, timing belt: $350
Injectors Prelude: $75
Fuel Pump $150
Header: DC or Megan $300 or add difference if you go with the higher end ones.

Engine Assembly: $800

GRAND TOTAL rounded: $4000

This Price does not reflect Installation of motor in your vehicle. And on top of all that you would need to get yourself a B series Tranny if you dont already have one which will run you anywhere from $400=$1200 depending on which one you want to run.

Axles and linkages would run you around another $300.

ECU Chipped p28's usually work well with this set up. That would cost you around $250, and if your car is obd2 you would need a Conversion harness which would run you about $100-150.

Hope Im not missing anything, if I am Im sure somebody will add it in for me.


Best of Luck with whatever you decide to do! I can't Stress enough how important TUNING is!

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

excellent write-up djtrini!!

those are all the 'hard parts' yeah, but then you have the extra expenses you never really quite plan on... gaskets, fasteners and misc. hardware, plug wires, plugs, water pump, timing belt, hoses, seals, extra tools you may not have... **** adds up.... that's why I put a decent build at about six grand.

imported_SaYjAiBaO

well non vtec cranks have a longer stroke. 89mm compared to 87.2 of the vtec cranks. the slightly longer stroke does have result in a slightly higher displacement. shorter stroke will yield lower piston speeds which will allow you to rev higher but the trade off is torque. ls/b20vtecs have more torque all over the board compared to vtec motors. if you're a strip guy then there's nothing wrong with going with a frankenstein setup but i wouldn't recommend it for any kind of circuit driving.

imported_SilverSleeper

You might if you were doing something like autocross where the increased torque is more desirable than high rpm capability.

imported_bananax

Sorry if I'm totaly wrong
but I thought most LS Vtec setups offer higher compression ratio due to the ls block have a slightly higher displacement and the B16a head having a slightly smaller combustion chamber,?

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

First of all, a larger bore doesn't NOT effect the rod/stroke ratio. Only the crankshaft and rods will change the rod/stroke ratio. So a b20vtec and LSvtec have the EXACT same rod/stroke ratio....this is b/c they both use the same crank and rods.

People do LSvtecs b/c they want the broad torque curve of the LS and the nice top end power common to the VTEC engines.
Not b/c people are poor and want vtec and can't afford the "superior" GSR...lol. I mean, sure, prolly 60% of the LSvtecs out there are a stock b16/gsr head on a stock LS bottom end, and they only make 150-160whp even on a good tune. But for the other percentile of people, such as myself, who build their bottom ends properly to handle the higher revs known to the VTEC engines, they can make 200+whp out of a relatively simple (no forged internals) setup....superior GSR...haha.

As for the b20vtecs or LSvtecs not being able to rev past 7200rpms....are you kidding me?!?!?!?
I know of like 10 people who rev their bone stock b20vtecs or lsvtecs to 8k all day, and they've lasted well over a year. People run into problems when they rev their engines to 9k (but rev a b16 or gsr to 9k and see how long it lasts) and don't get their cars tuned and constantly kick the crap out of them.
I love the statement a VTEC head is almost wasted on a unbuilt block, this statement shows right there, that you prolly don't have a whole lot of experience with b20vtecs (not being a dick, just defending one of my favourite engines...b20vtecs). My buddys b20vtec (bone stock bottom end, b16 head w/ITR cams, stock manifolds and 2" exhaust on a basemap) runs 13.5's...doesn't seem like much of a waste to me and he revs it to 8k and has had it for quite a while.
Another buddys of mine (i actually had this engine in my posession at one point) had again, another bone stock b20 bottom end, with a stock b16 head, with ITR cams, ported intake manifold, mugen header and 2.5" exhaust tuned on hondata, make almost 200whp....this was in an EF, and let me tell you this thing was a rocket....lasted a long time too and he revved it to 8k.
Another friend of mine, has a bone stock b20 bottom end with stock b16 head with bolt-ons and a street tune and this cars got some *****. I don't wanna spit out numbers, b/c it hasn't been to the dyno for a max power tune yet, but i'd be surprised with anything less than 180whp.

This is why 2006 was the year of b20vtecs, everyone has one, lots of people blew them up (being stupid, revving to 9k, not getting the car tuned and just running it on a GSR program) and even more people made awesome power with them.
That brings me to another point....tuning. Honda doesn't have a factory lsvtec in any car, therefore there is no "stock" lsvtec program to use that will work with everyones engine. So, most people cheap out and just use a GSR program, or someone else's program, and wonder why it doesn't make as much power, or only lasted a few months....tuning is so important, like on any setup, but especially important on lsvtecs or B20vtecs, b/c like i said before there isn't a solid stock program to use (IMO the GSR program isn't the best idea to use full time on your ls/b20vtecs for obvious reasons).

With a b20vtec, you don't need to rev to 8k all day, it makes enough torque to only really need to rev to 4-5k on the street and still be hella fun....unlike the VTEC counterparts (b16/gsr/itrs) that are only really fun up past 5000rpms.

In conclusion, a stock LS bottom end and stock b16 head will only yeild about 10:1 CR, which is barely high enough to make the vtec head really shine. Now put b16/ITR pistons in the block (like what i'm building) some ARP rod bolts (i'm not even going to get into ARP rod bolts and all what else needs to be done to properly install them) and VTEC (gsr/itr) oil pump, water pump and timing belt and you'll have yourself a higher compression, high revving (8k and above provided you balance the rotating assemble) engine capable of making nice power with the right cam/valvetrain setup and good tuning.
$6000 to build a lsvtec??!?!? You're crazy. I've got about $1000 invested in my LS block build and will need to spend about another $600-800 for parts and machine work, like balancing (something MOST people DON'T do), bore/hone, installing the rod bolts and resizing the rods accordingly. Bringing the total cost of my LS bottom end build to just under $2000. Mind you i'll be doing the assembly myself and the swap myself, which saves lots of money, and of course the tuning myself.

Anyways, LS and B20vtec's rock!!!

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

ummm I disagree with you on many points, but we'll leave it at that. you said what you wanted, I said what I wanted...

trigga

LOL 6000!!! wow zeeman please use me as a living example in your nex post.

bbarbulo ive gotten a block pretty much completly build for under 3000 ( B20B block )

Another 1000 - 1200 on my head and the rest of money went to other little things

My engine is pushing well over 200+whp and can exceed well over 8grand safely.

trigga

Which ill make a video of as soon as i give zeeman a shot at tuning my motor with some new injectors and fuel pump.

As soon as a get a weekend off that is.

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

so you haven't spent any money on a header, intake, exhaust, porting and polishing, cams, throttle body, improved mounts, improved clutch, etc.? I'm assuming he's starting with a bone stock non-VTEC car, and he wants to do everything just about right. you've already said you built the block for 3K, which is good, then 1000 on the head (which is marginal, prolly using stock cams).... and that's it. those other two grand would quickly be spent on 'miscellaneous' items... like if the guy wants to keep power steering and air con, he needs B series p/s pump and a/c compressor. if he wants to keep it cool, he needs to invest in a better radiator (double hp on a stock size rad is just silly)... etc etc etc... I could go on for pages, but you get the point. there is a lot more to your engine bay than just a block and head. like I run a stock block D series with a 'home made' turbo, yet I managed to spend just over $4K on the turbo kit alone. Haven't even touched internals on the block. I'd want about $10K cash in hand before I started pulling the engine for a build.

trigga

well you can spend 2k easilty on bolt ons but all in all b20/vtec builds should not go over 6000 thousand dollars.

Ive probally just hit the 6000thousand mark (including some repairs) ive pretty much done everything but fuel ( injectors or fuel pump )

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

injectors and pump should be at least five bills right there... RC 310 injectors plus a Walbro.... unless you wanna go el cheapo and get prelude injectors with the resistor pack, but even then you wanna have them sent out for cleaning and balancing... it all adds up very quickly.

trigga

I decent build would not cost 6000, you can get a 180whp setup that will cost you roughly 3000

my setup which is an extreme setup will cost you just over 6000 grand.

Of course all my prices are depending on where you get your parts from and weither or not you plan on doing most the labour yourself.

zeeman

iTrader: (1)

just out of curiosity, why would he need a better rad? I know plenty of people, and have tuned plenty of even boosted cars (which will actually make double the power than stock) that use a stock rad (i.e. dual core half rad or teg full length rad) and even in the dead of summer only see 195-205 degree coolant temps. Which is far from too hot.

To build an engine for $6000 would be a pretty extensive build, even if you had to buy the LS or B20 engine and the b16 head. But to spend $6000 on your car doing the swap is definately more than realistic. Like you said, you'll need a decent header, an intake, exhaust, the proper rad hoses, mounts, axles (if not already equipped with a b-series), chipped ecu, etc etc....all of that stuff adds up very quick. But from what i've gathered from his post he's strictly talking about a LSvtec.....not having to do a swap and everything associated with that.

I'm not trying to sound like an arrogant ***, and i do value your opinion Bruno, but what parts exactly do you disagree with?
Most of my post was stating facts...not opinions...and these facts were proven on the street/dyno/track...so its not like i'm makin this stuff up.

Trigga:
you want me to use you as an example...fine. You're one of those guys that took their stock b20 bottom end to 9500rpms and had your engine let go on you after about only a year....a perfect example of why NOT to do that.

This post isn't an arguement, or a fight. But i did see a lot of misinformation in prior posts. Be it fact or opinion. If you don't believe that a OEM(ish) 1.8L build can make 200+whp, check out honda-tech....theres a big 1.8L OEM bottom end build thread with lots and lots of people making over 200whp on OEM(ish) or non-forged internals builds, half of them being lsvtecs.

Again, not trying to be a dick, but how many lsvtecs or b20vtecs have you built or tuned? What i post up here, is first hand experience from building ls/b20vtecs and tuning them and seeing how long they last or for that matter how long they are still going for. You can read until you're blue in the face, or talk to people and see what they say, but you do have to realize, a LOT of people talk sauce, and that firsthand experience is the best knowledge out there....again not trying to call you out bruno, but just trying to prove a point....and now...i get banned...lol.

trigga

Nice example zeeman of why not to take a stock b20 bottom end to 9500.

But yes im glad that the point got across that you can make a very extreme N/A setup with 6000 dollars. A alot of people seem to think that N/A is a very expensive and not worth doing.

In conclusion 180+whp can be accomplished with WAY less than 6000 dollars.