K-Series is it worth it?
17-Mar-2006, 06:54 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Brampton
Posts: 212
K-Series is it worth it?
Well I've been pricing out what it'd cost for just parts for a K20 swap into an EJ and really its not as expensive as everyone claims it to be.
Hybrid Racing Billet Motor Mounts
$599.00
Hybrid Racing Stage 2 Axles
$700.00
Hybrid Racing Conversion Harness
$350.00
AEM Fuel Pressure Regulator
$200.00
Hybrid Racing Fuel Line
$250.00
Golden Eagle Fuel Rail
$125.00
Revo Shifter Box
$125.00
AEM Cold Air Intake
$225.00
DC Sports Header
$395.00
Honda Thermo Unit
$22.00
Honda Switch Coolant
$26.00
EP3 Bracket w/ pully
$92.00
Hybrid Racing Clutch Lines
$75.00
Hondata ECU Modification $1000.00
Total $3870.00
and its not nesscary to buy all of these parts you could always deal with the OEM Exhuast mani and save yourself $400. So about $4000 in parts alone than motor and tranny.
So for say 6000-8000 for a complete swap just for about 210whp is it really worth it?
Hybrid Racing Billet Motor Mounts
$599.00
Hybrid Racing Stage 2 Axles
$700.00
Hybrid Racing Conversion Harness
$350.00
AEM Fuel Pressure Regulator
$200.00
Hybrid Racing Fuel Line
$250.00
Golden Eagle Fuel Rail
$125.00
Revo Shifter Box
$125.00
AEM Cold Air Intake
$225.00
DC Sports Header
$395.00
Honda Thermo Unit
$22.00
Honda Switch Coolant
$26.00
EP3 Bracket w/ pully
$92.00
Hybrid Racing Clutch Lines
$75.00
Hondata ECU Modification $1000.00
Total $3870.00
and its not nesscary to buy all of these parts you could always deal with the OEM Exhuast mani and save yourself $400. So about $4000 in parts alone than motor and tranny.
So for say 6000-8000 for a complete swap just for about 210whp is it really worth it?
17-Mar-2006, 07:12 PM
#2
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 1,587
210whp is key
what b-series gets even close to that?
It's an expensive swap but a mild intake/header/exhaust will improve the HP/TQ dramatically as the K-series engines love mods.
It's the next swap I'm doing for sure, what other swap can you throw into a eg hatch and run mid 13's to low 12's depending on the k-series exactly.
Total $3870.00
so 1370.00 + 1200 for the K20 engine that a guy on TCC is selling = 5070.00
go to any JDM importer and a lousy B18C5/JDM b18c swap alone is 5000.00 and that's 183whp
check out
http://hybrid-racing.com/
what b-series gets even close to that?
It's an expensive swap but a mild intake/header/exhaust will improve the HP/TQ dramatically as the K-series engines love mods.
It's the next swap I'm doing for sure, what other swap can you throw into a eg hatch and run mid 13's to low 12's depending on the k-series exactly.
Total $3870.00
so 1370.00 + 1200 for the K20 engine that a guy on TCC is selling = 5070.00
go to any JDM importer and a lousy B18C5/JDM b18c swap alone is 5000.00 and that's 183whp
check out
http://hybrid-racing.com/
You have to ask yourself what your goals are. While the K is not fully developed yet, for a street motor it already surpasses 99% of the B-series stuff running around out there.
I see a lot of guys with borderline "streetable" B-series engines running 2.0-2.1 liters with sleeved blocks, 13:1 compression, big cams, etc. They usually end up putting down somewhere between 240 and 260 whp on my dyno. Very respectable numbers. In comparison, take a standard K20A2 out of an RSX. Bolt on a Comptech Race header, CAI and exhaust of your choice. Add a set of JDM ITR cams, some good valve springs, an over bored TB and a Hondata reflash. You're now looking at 235-245 whp consistently without touching the bottom end or head. You've got a more reliable motor (near OEM reliability), a broader torque curve (I-VTEC) and frankly, with a catalytic, you can still pass emissions, even a visual in Cali. And we've already seen what a little more compression (12:1) and bigger cams can do - 265 whp on 91 octane.
I guess the point is, the K-series today (in its early stages of tune) is already the equal of a fully developed B-series street motor. And you can get that equality with virtually no mechanical skill/knowledge. Just bolt on and go. As development proceeds (heads, cams, etc.) that power will come up substantially and eclipse the B-series.
So, where do you want to be? Near the end of a great engine's development cycle (b-series) or at the beginning of a new era with an engine that already equals its illustrious predecessor?
C_A_T
I see a lot of guys with borderline "streetable" B-series engines running 2.0-2.1 liters with sleeved blocks, 13:1 compression, big cams, etc. They usually end up putting down somewhere between 240 and 260 whp on my dyno. Very respectable numbers. In comparison, take a standard K20A2 out of an RSX. Bolt on a Comptech Race header, CAI and exhaust of your choice. Add a set of JDM ITR cams, some good valve springs, an over bored TB and a Hondata reflash. You're now looking at 235-245 whp consistently without touching the bottom end or head. You've got a more reliable motor (near OEM reliability), a broader torque curve (I-VTEC) and frankly, with a catalytic, you can still pass emissions, even a visual in Cali. And we've already seen what a little more compression (12:1) and bigger cams can do - 265 whp on 91 octane.
I guess the point is, the K-series today (in its early stages of tune) is already the equal of a fully developed B-series street motor. And you can get that equality with virtually no mechanical skill/knowledge. Just bolt on and go. As development proceeds (heads, cams, etc.) that power will come up substantially and eclipse the B-series.
So, where do you want to be? Near the end of a great engine's development cycle (b-series) or at the beginning of a new era with an engine that already equals its illustrious predecessor?
C_A_T
17-Mar-2006, 07:40 PM
#3
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 1,819
^^^ The K20 that was for sale on here was an a3.
You don't want an a3.
Unless there was an a2 for sale for that price that I missed.
In which case please direct me to the person selling it and I'll buy it.
Anyways.
K20 swaps are expensive...but I think they are worth every penny.
If you can do most of the work yourself.
Then it will be much cheaper.
It starts costing a lot when you start paying to get work done.
I'm sure if your in no hurry to get a K-series then you could wait another year and the price will go down a bit probably.
Oh and it looks like your prices for everything are un US$$$.
Because Hondata is a bit more then that.
Atleast at Neetronics it is.
You don't want an a3.
Unless there was an a2 for sale for that price that I missed.
In which case please direct me to the person selling it and I'll buy it.
Anyways.
K20 swaps are expensive...but I think they are worth every penny.
If you can do most of the work yourself.
Then it will be much cheaper.
It starts costing a lot when you start paying to get work done.
I'm sure if your in no hurry to get a K-series then you could wait another year and the price will go down a bit probably.
Oh and it looks like your prices for everything are un US$$$.
Because Hondata is a bit more then that.
Atleast at Neetronics it is.
17-Mar-2006, 07:44 PM
#4
for $6000-8000 (even having to buy the swap) you could build a b-series that makes way over 210whp....hell b16s can make 200whp. You also have to consider the price of the install if you're not mechanically inclined. B-series swaps are a direct drop into most civics where as the K needs a lot of expensive custom parts.
If you're going to go K-series go big or go home. K24 all the way, if you're really made of money k24 with the RSX type S head.
If i had the money i would rock a K-series for sure. But honestly for the money you could build a b-series (b20vtec is my choice) that makes more power than the k20. And that would be a fresh engine with 0kms on it.
If you're going to go K-series go big or go home. K24 all the way, if you're really made of money k24 with the RSX type S head.
If i had the money i would rock a K-series for sure. But honestly for the money you could build a b-series (b20vtec is my choice) that makes more power than the k20. And that would be a fresh engine with 0kms on it.
17-Mar-2006, 07:46 PM
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Brampton
Posts: 212
yeah all the prices where in USD, but I have family there so i wont have to pay shipping costs :P roughly 4500 cdn.
also im not in any rush for the k20a2 ive even been looking into getting a k24 block with a k20a2 head but as i keep reading ill come to turms with what i want and next summer i should be rollin in the kpowa!
also im not in any rush for the k20a2 ive even been looking into getting a k24 block with a k20a2 head but as i keep reading ill come to turms with what i want and next summer i should be rollin in the kpowa!
17-Mar-2006, 07:49 PM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 1,819
There isn't as many custom parts as people think.
I would say the most custom thing you will have to do is drill out the passenger side tranny bracket and put the new one in.
Everything else to get is started and running is listed above basically with the acception of the Karcepts shifter mount bracket.
But thats if you want to be able to use your center console.
I would say the most custom thing you will have to do is drill out the passenger side tranny bracket and put the new one in.
Everything else to get is started and running is listed above basically with the acception of the Karcepts shifter mount bracket.
But thats if you want to be able to use your center console.
17-Mar-2006, 07:50 PM
#7
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 1,587
Originally posted by Spiderman
^^^ The K20 that was for sale on here was an a3.
You don't want an a3.
Unless there was an a2 for sale for that price that I missed.
In which case please direct me to the person selling it and I'll buy it.
^^^ The K20 that was for sale on here was an a3.
You don't want an a3.
Unless there was an a2 for sale for that price that I missed.
In which case please direct me to the person selling it and I'll buy it.
Did I sway it was a k20a2? or a3?
From what I remember there has only been probobly one k20 on tcc forums for sale @ 1200.00.
Regardless...
K20A3 160@6500 141@4000 9.8:1 DC5 RSX 5spd no Type 2 2.01
K20A2 200@7400 142@6000 11.1:1 DC5 Type-S 6spd no Type 1 2.01
still a worth swap to do IMO. Swap out to OEM A2 pistons and run the camshafts/IM and it will be just as good. Obviously if you can find the A2 to begin with then it's all said and done but if not then it's not hard to tear the motor appart to replace a few parts. Like stated in the quote the power is really good for a stock motor, and with any modifications it will be extremely quick in a light chassis car
17-Mar-2006, 07:54 PM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 1,819
Originally posted by mugen_r
Did I sway it was a k20a2? or a3?
From what I remember there has only been probobly one k20 on tcc forums for sale @ 1200.00.
Regardless...
K20A3 160@6500 141@4000 9.8:1 DC5 RSX 5spd no Type 2 2.01
K20A2 200@7400 142@6000 11.1:1 DC5 Type-S 6spd no Type 1 2.01
still a worth swap to do IMO. Swap out to OEM A2 pistons and run the camshafts/IM and it will be just as good. Obviously if you can find the A2 to begin with then it's all said and done but if not then it's not hard to tear the motor appart to replace a few parts. Like stated in the quote the power is really good for a stock motor, and with any modifications it will be extremely quick in a light chassis car
Did I sway it was a k20a2? or a3?
From what I remember there has only been probobly one k20 on tcc forums for sale @ 1200.00.
Regardless...
K20A3 160@6500 141@4000 9.8:1 DC5 RSX 5spd no Type 2 2.01
K20A2 200@7400 142@6000 11.1:1 DC5 Type-S 6spd no Type 1 2.01
still a worth swap to do IMO. Swap out to OEM A2 pistons and run the camshafts/IM and it will be just as good. Obviously if you can find the A2 to begin with then it's all said and done but if not then it's not hard to tear the motor appart to replace a few parts. Like stated in the quote the power is really good for a stock motor, and with any modifications it will be extremely quick in a light chassis car
It doesn't have the same VTEC and only comes with VTC.
In all honestly go with a TSX motor if you want good power and good tq.
But if you do find an a3 you could go with it.
Be a cheaper motor in the beginning.
And once you have a K in your car it is a hell of a lot easier to swap them in and out.
So your call of course.
But personally I would just save up and either go K20a2 or K24a2.
Or if you can find a K20a for a good price go with it.
17-Mar-2006, 07:57 PM
#9
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 1,587
Originally posted by Spiderman
Well the a3 doesn't have the same head as the a2.
It doesn't have the same VTEC and only comes with VTC.
Well the a3 doesn't have the same head as the a2.
It doesn't have the same VTEC and only comes with VTC.
I've read before about the cams not having the 'vtec' lobe but never knew the heads from the a2 and a3 would differ. Cool never knew that
17-Mar-2006, 07:59 PM
#10
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 1,819
Originally posted by mugen_r
I've read before about the cams not having the 'vtec' lobe but never knew the heads from the a2 and a3 would differ. Cool never knew that
I've read before about the cams not having the 'vtec' lobe but never knew the heads from the a2 and a3 would differ. Cool never knew that
From what I have read anyways.
17-Mar-2006, 09:46 PM
#13
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Moon
Posts: 8,921
k20 can be an expensive swap if you want it to be.
or it can be an average costing swap.
all depends on how picky you get.
people who say wait for the swap to be more common and parts will decrease in price are stupid and dont know what they are talking about.
the minute k swap parts get cheaper there is a bigger demand in k series motor hence the price will jump fast up high close to if not over the price of a c5.
the reason right now the motor is a dime a dozen is because no body wants it. and its not a bolt on into any car except a type s into a ep3.
or it can be an average costing swap.
all depends on how picky you get.
people who say wait for the swap to be more common and parts will decrease in price are stupid and dont know what they are talking about.
the minute k swap parts get cheaper there is a bigger demand in k series motor hence the price will jump fast up high close to if not over the price of a c5.
the reason right now the motor is a dime a dozen is because no body wants it. and its not a bolt on into any car except a type s into a ep3.
17-Mar-2006, 11:15 PM
#15
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,498
personal preference is the key. No way in hell i'd ever spend $8000 for 210whp when a $3-4000 turbo'd D will make more power AND more torque.
Put then people say turbo the K, yada yada. However if we are talking reasonably priced power....You are not talking K series or even VTEC B series.
No one can say $4000 or even $3000 is worth it for B16 over D16 when its 30hp and like 10lb-ft or torque, so if I get the funds i'll gladly take turbo D16 power at about 200whp and 180-200 torque that arrives at 2800-6000rpm.
and if you blow up the D, how much is another one...$500, $600...how much for a B16 or B18...alot more then that.
Put then people say turbo the K, yada yada. However if we are talking reasonably priced power....You are not talking K series or even VTEC B series.
No one can say $4000 or even $3000 is worth it for B16 over D16 when its 30hp and like 10lb-ft or torque, so if I get the funds i'll gladly take turbo D16 power at about 200whp and 180-200 torque that arrives at 2800-6000rpm.
and if you blow up the D, how much is another one...$500, $600...how much for a B16 or B18...alot more then that.
17-Mar-2006, 11:42 PM
#16
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 1,587
Originally posted by alwaysoverkill
personal preference is the key. No way in hell i'd ever spend $8000 for 210whp when a $3-4000 turbo'd D will make more power AND more torque.
Put then people say turbo the K, yada yada. However if we are talking reasonably priced power....You are not talking K series or even VTEC B series.
No one can say $4000 or even $3000 is worth it for B16 over D16 when its 30hp and like 10lb-ft or torque, so if I get the funds i'll gladly take turbo D16 power at about 200whp and 180-200 torque that arrives at 2800-6000rpm.
and if you blow up the D, how much is another one...$500, $600...how much for a B16 or B18...alot more then that.
personal preference is the key. No way in hell i'd ever spend $8000 for 210whp when a $3-4000 turbo'd D will make more power AND more torque.
Put then people say turbo the K, yada yada. However if we are talking reasonably priced power....You are not talking K series or even VTEC B series.
No one can say $4000 or even $3000 is worth it for B16 over D16 when its 30hp and like 10lb-ft or torque, so if I get the funds i'll gladly take turbo D16 power at about 200whp and 180-200 torque that arrives at 2800-6000rpm.
and if you blow up the D, how much is another one...$500, $600...how much for a B16 or B18...alot more then that.
It's all personal preference. Your taking a turbo kit, doing some minor mods to the d-series to allow it to run that kit. Your only bolting on HP/TQ in a large mass. A K-series will work amazingly NA, and if you have the turbo bug, throw on a custom turbo kit and you'll easily hit 300+ whp.
Sure your d-series is 50-150 bucks while a k-series block/head isn't and won't be that cheap for a long time but what has a greater path with performance? The D-series will be limited by it's 1.5 / 1.6 liters even if you bore and re-sleeve it to a larger displacement...but how far?
B/K series engines will always be more expensive due to the fact that not many cars came factory with DOHC here on the USDM market and the D-series is a dime a dozen.
18-Mar-2006, 04:10 AM
#17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Brampton
Posts: 212
glad to see all the feedback from everyone! lots of detail, deffintly looking into k24 block with k20r head, im not gonna just go out and dump the money into my car im reading everything first and seeing what mods need to be done how it'll perform stock or not.
Every little piece of information is a big help, everyone who's aginst the Kseries always has to compare a boosted B-Series to equal the same power but if you think about it.. why spend 8k to build up a GS-R when that 8g could be in a stock motor which will put out the same power? then with minior mods you'll be pushin out more.
Again as stated it's all personal preference.
KEEP THE COMMENTS COMMING
Every little piece of information is a big help, everyone who's aginst the Kseries always has to compare a boosted B-Series to equal the same power but if you think about it.. why spend 8k to build up a GS-R when that 8g could be in a stock motor which will put out the same power? then with minior mods you'll be pushin out more.
Again as stated it's all personal preference.
KEEP THE COMMENTS COMMING
18-Mar-2006, 04:26 PM
#18
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Moon
Posts: 8,921
Originally posted by unbelievableEG
why spend 8k to build up a GS-R when that 8g could be in a stock motor which will put out the same power? then with minior mods you'll be pushin out more.
Again as stated it's all personal preference.
KEEP THE COMMENTS COMMING
why spend 8k to build up a GS-R when that 8g could be in a stock motor which will put out the same power? then with minior mods you'll be pushin out more.
Again as stated it's all personal preference.
KEEP THE COMMENTS COMMING
lol
if you spent 8 g's into a gs-r you will be spankin the k.
18-Mar-2006, 04:28 PM
#19
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Moon
Posts: 8,921
Re: K-Series is it worth it?
Originally posted by unbelievableEG
Well I've been pricing out what it'd cost for just parts for a K20 swap into an EJ and really its not as expensive as everyone claims it to be.
Hybrid Racing Billet Motor Mounts
$599.00
Hybrid Racing Stage 2 Axles
$700.00 (not needed)
Hybrid Racing Conversion Harness
$350.00 (not needed)
AEM Fuel Pressure Regulator
$200.00
Hybrid Racing Fuel Line
$250.00
Golden Eagle Fuel Rail
$125.00 (not needed)
Revo Shifter Box
$125.00 (not needed)
AEM Cold Air Intake
$225.00
DC Sports Header
$395.00 (not needed)
Honda Thermo Unit
$22.00
Honda Switch Coolant
$26.00
EP3 Bracket w/ pully
$92.00
Hybrid Racing Clutch Lines
$75.00
Hondata ECU Modification $1000.00 (not needed depending on motor)
Total $3870.00
and its not nesscary to buy all of these parts you could always deal with the OEM Exhuast mani and save yourself $400. So about $4000 in parts alone than motor and tranny.
So for say 6000-8000 for a complete swap just for about 210whp is it really worth it?
Well I've been pricing out what it'd cost for just parts for a K20 swap into an EJ and really its not as expensive as everyone claims it to be.
Hybrid Racing Billet Motor Mounts
$599.00
Hybrid Racing Stage 2 Axles
$700.00 (not needed)
Hybrid Racing Conversion Harness
$350.00 (not needed)
AEM Fuel Pressure Regulator
$200.00
Hybrid Racing Fuel Line
$250.00
Golden Eagle Fuel Rail
$125.00 (not needed)
Revo Shifter Box
$125.00 (not needed)
AEM Cold Air Intake
$225.00
DC Sports Header
$395.00 (not needed)
Honda Thermo Unit
$22.00
Honda Switch Coolant
$26.00
EP3 Bracket w/ pully
$92.00
Hybrid Racing Clutch Lines
$75.00
Hondata ECU Modification $1000.00 (not needed depending on motor)
Total $3870.00
and its not nesscary to buy all of these parts you could always deal with the OEM Exhuast mani and save yourself $400. So about $4000 in parts alone than motor and tranny.
So for say 6000-8000 for a complete swap just for about 210whp is it really worth it?
