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crank girdles

Old 09-Sep-2003, 07:38 AM
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Question crank girdles

what is the purpose and benifits of a crank girdle?? Is it worth the money to install one during a rebuild?? Does it just help with lubrication, or is it a structural thing...???
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 08:51 AM
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structural... keeps bottom end from getting squirrly
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 08:54 AM
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thought so... do you think they are worth installing? are they nececary for higher output engines?
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 09:15 AM
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forged crank should do you

well... how HO are we talkin?? whos' doing machine work for you, and how much $$ do you have... what kinda goals?
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 10:34 AM
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Well as you might have read in other threads, Im going to be doing a B20 vtec... I want it to be as reliable as possible... I want to build the internals right the first time to handle 3-400hp... even tho my goal is to only have 200hp at the end of the build... I want an all motor 200 hp N/A setup that will take a 75 shot of nitrous...

I plann on haveing it resleeved, and posted, or I might try Leitner Performances sleeves with built in blockgaurds (T top sleeves I think they are called)

Pistons (not sure of compression yet) maybe JE 12.5 to 1
Rods LS or B20 maybe..not sure what they can handel (more research here needed)
Crank- B20 with Honda bearings
ARP hardware

B18c Vtec head with manifold and TB
Head will be ported and polished
Havent decided on valves and springs yet ( maybe go with stock and replace later on) set rev limiter to 7500 to keep it safe till then...

Kamakazi headder
AEM CAI
MSD Ignition
Walboro/holly 255 fuel pump
B&M FPR

ECU havent researched it yet...dont know what the best one will be, and definately dont have $$ for a stand alone...

And of course 75 shot of zex


Minus the Zex, Im hopefully going to meet the 200hp mark (realistically... plus minus a few)


Im not familiar with any good machine shops, so im figuring since Letiner is a TCC affiliate, Ill let them do my machine work...

This is where my question about the Girdle comes in...since my blocks gonna be apart, I want everything done right the first time...if a Girdle is neccesary then I want to put it on during the bulid...
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 10:57 AM
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rods... with 12.5:1 compression and 75 shot haha... no WAY you're using the stock ones. the crank... maybe but I wouldn't count on it.

In your case, I'd start with a beat up oil burning B18C that's intact, pick it up pretty cheap, take it to Leitner, and say "Steve, my lord, please build me two liter B18C" and throw money at him until he says "Stop, Mortal!!" Few weeks later, you should have a two liter B series all correct and reliable. The alternative... JUN stroker kit.
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 11:34 AM
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Ive read on a few sites like the old one.com, and B20vtec. com that the B20 crank is fine as long as its within specs... as far as the rods, like I said I havent researched it yet, so I will make the right choice when the time comes... Ill likely end up spending the money and buying eagle or something equivilant...

I dont want to just give a motor to somone and say here build it for me... Its something I want to do myself, I have a shop with all the tools or access to tools (my brother inlaw is a mechanic) to get the job done... If I get the right machine work done and have help choosing the right parts, I know I can assemble the thing properly, with guidence of course like a Helms manual(I have a decent background in aircraft piston engines, so I have mechanical skills) I have also rebult many snowmobile and bike engines...So I figured this would be another good learning experiance for me.... I have a perfectly running motor in my car right now so I dont care if it takes me a whole year to get it done right, I just want to do it myself... you know, its nice to take pride in something you build yourself...

But you are right with the 2 liter b18 as a cheaper way to go, ive considered that option...but wont it end up with weak sleeves like the b20 if it gets bored out to a 2 liter?? I think Id feel more comfortable with those nice T top sleeves in a b20... unless they would do that with the b18...

But back to the Title... is this crank girdle benificial...I want to know, so I can work it into my budget...
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 11:51 AM
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Leitner builds the two liter B18C with the sleeves, it's not just a straight bore job. Leitner doesn't **** around...

Ya, I know you wanna do it yourself, and that's fine... I was talking about machine work... have Leitner do that stuff for you. But nonetheless, assembly is KEY, and with something spinning at 8000 rpm, I'd rather have an experienced person build it. But given you've done aircraft engines... ****, if you can do that... I don't see you having a problem with this project.

For crank girdles... it's only necessary if you are pushing the limits of the block, which in this case you are not. I think you can skip that and spend the money on high quality rods.
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 12:24 PM
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OK perfect, no girdle it is then, I like the idea of putting the money into a good set of rods if the girdle isnt nececary... And if the block is sleeved, I wont be nearly pushing its limits..

Aircraft engines are very different... they have individual horrozontally apposed cylenders that can be replaced when worn or cracked, instead of a compleate head like on a car...they also use a push rod system to actuate the valves, since the cam is below the cyclenders... RPMs are also significantly lower...

But the main thing is that it requires more attention to detail and even more precision handelling of parts and torque specifications other wise your sacraficing reliability and inturn an unsafe engine... no CAA at 15,000 ft... So yah the assembly of this project shouldnt be an issue, it might even be easier cuz I wont have to Lockwire every bolt on the engine, like I have to do on an aircraft engine (this can be very time consuming when assembling AC engins)... Plus I have great resources between you guys and my Brotherinlaw...

What do you think about the T sleeves...are they nececary? I plan on going Non Turbo...but who knows, i might get bord with it a few years from now and bolt on a 20psi turbo...
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 12:31 PM
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sleeves are a good idea if you plan on 12.5:1 comp and spray but IMO you are really looking for trouble with an open deck design and that high a comp ratio. I'd do something more conservative like 9.5:1 so it's able to take 8 psi of boost later on. You want reliable power, no?

Ya, I know a little about aircraft engines... flats have much better dynamics so there is little engine vibration when you are in mid-air A guy I met builds Subaru WRX motors for aircraft use... he gets like $30K USD for each motor - base price
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by bbarbulo
flats have much better dynamics so there is little engine vibration when you are in mid-air A guy I met builds Subaru WRX motors for aircraft use... he gets like $30K USD for each motor - base price
Yah Theres a guy that parks his plane here, with one of those subaru engines...they arnt very common tho, Ive only ever seen the one... The guy had major problems with the subaru oil cooler tho, I watched him do an emergency landing in the circuit once, cuz the oilcooler failed, and the engine overheated... He was showing the plane to a potential buyer at the time ( guess what, they guy didnt buy the plane...heh)
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by bbarbulo
sleeves are a good idea if you plan on 12.5:1 comp and spray but IMO you are really looking for trouble with an open deck design and that high a comp ratio. I'd do something more conservative like 9.5:1 so it's able to take 8 psi of boost later on. You want reliable power, no?

Yah I was thinking of going high compression, then swapping out the pistons if I decide on a turbo later on... But maybe the 9 to 1 will be a good happy medium, then the turbo wont be such a chore down the road, and it will run good NA with the sparay on weekends type thing..

...And yes Reliability is my biggest concern... What kind of hp diff would the 12.5 to 1 make apposed to the lower 9...??
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 12:57 PM
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the hp diff depends on your build quality, but you have to understand that you can tune a lower comp engine to more hp and have a greater level of safety. You can also detune it for regular gas, or bump timing for a hotter burn. If you are feeling silly, you could technically use a higher comp piston, but a thin head gasket... and then go to a thick copper head gasket when you go turbo, but problem is total deck height has its effects on internal geometry, to the point of being beyond my scope of knowledge. I would advise you that if you are truly serious about building something nutty, that you go and purchase a project engine and talk to a reputable machine shop who will be doing the work. However, if you don't know what it is you want, you are wasting your time and their time. You MUST outline a clear and consise plan as to which direction you wish to take... doing an NA build and then doing turbo down the road is a waste of money. Pick one, write it down into a document, and whenever you are tempted to stray from the path... look at the document and stay true to it! Projects like what you are talking about absolutely get out of control in terms of finances... so take one path and stay on it.
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 01:12 PM
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Good Advice..Thx bbarbulo..

Makes sense... When you put it that way, Im going to go with a low compression for a medium turbo setup..say 15-20 psi... Till the turbo finds my bank account Ill just use my spray to pick up the slack... Its safer running spray on lower compression anyway...

In the end it will be more reliable and probably more drivable..easier starts and such...
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 01:15 PM
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what if I go 9.5:1 and then go to a thicker head gasket down the road... would a 9.5:1 pluse the gasket bring the compression down enough to allow that kind of boost? 15-20psi
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 04:18 PM
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You can run 10:1 with boost if you want, but it is ALL about the tuning.
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 04:24 PM
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Kevin, he's talking crazy talk like 15-20 lbs of boost... ya, it's about tuning, but how likely is he to spend $3K on a Haltech or Motec?

No one said you can't... but I think on a DAILY DRIVEN CAR, it's silly.

BoostZex, remember, the thicker head gasket is not the ultimate solution.... it's a patch. There is something about a thick head gasket that ***** with combustion patterns, like quench area or something... in any case, it's not the right way to do it... have ONE plan in mind, and move forward with THAT plan in mind all the way, don't change directions.
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by bbarbulo
Kevin, he's talking crazy talk like 15-20 lbs of boost... ya, it's about tuning, but how likely is he to spend $3K on a Haltech or Motec?

No one said you can't... but I think on a DAILY DRIVEN CAR, it's silly.

BoostZex, remember, the thicker head gasket is not the ultimate solution.... it's a patch. There is something about a thick head gasket that ***** with combustion patterns, like quench area or something... in any case, it's not the right way to do it... have ONE plan in mind, and move forward with THAT plan in mind all the way, don't change directions.

well what I mean is that I want to be able to handle 15-20 psi... I most certinly wouldnt drive around town like that...lol ... If it can handle that kind of boost, than it should be bulletproof on 5-8 psi regular driveing...but It would be nice to be able to bump it up to 15psi at the track... And Id eventually swap out the manual controller for an inboard electronic device...

Wouldnt this be a good idea?? see I could just run a stock setup on 5 psi... But stock isnt gonna cut it ...

BTW go on letiner performances web site... they claim 40psi with those t top sleeves... I dont think 15 psi is that crazy??

I realize you cant just dial it up to 15 and off you go without tuning first... but if the engine can handel it, then the potential is there down the road...
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 05:55 PM
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So basically I should be looking at 9.0.1 or 9.5:1 compression pistions with a stock honda head gasket...
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Old 09-Sep-2003, 06:07 PM
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9.0 on 14 pounds of boost will produce a compression ratio of 17.6


9.0 on 6 psi will make 12.7:1
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