Boosted LS Dyno Charts/ Tuning/ Ebay Turbo kit
06-Mar-2007, 11:28 PM
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 138
Originally posted by Paolo
not really, a street tune is a good bases t start
not really, a street tune is a good bases t start
07-Mar-2007, 12:21 AM
#28
ya, besides on MOST dynos in southern ontario you can't get 70% of the fuel/ignition maps truely tuned solidly. So street tuning isn't useless, that just shows how ignorant you are.
Its good for many reasons. Like if you want fully tuned fuel/ignition maps, instead of just the WOT portions that dyno tuning well get tuned (in most cases).
Just to show you an idea of what i'm talking about. The area of the fuel map highlighted in blue is the part of the maps that will be tuned on the dyno on a typical boosted honda.
Now as you can see, thats only about 9 of 16 columns. Thats a little more than half of the fuel/ignition maps.
Where as street tuning will get the whole fuel/ignition maps tuned, not just the WOT portions.
Now, on a n/a car, the amount of the maps that get tuned while dyno tuning is less than 30%....or 3 of 10 columns.
This is what will get tuned on a n/a car on the dyno...again, street tuning will get the whole maps tuned.
Street tuning, is a great place to start for when you first get your setup going. I mean, JDMrice, what would you suggest, not getting it tuned at all until you put it on a dyno? Well good luck driving your car to the dyno after you put your nice big 440cc or larger injectors in your car (which is a MUST on a boosted setup) and it dumps mad fuel.
All of the cars i've street tuned, the owners always say the car runs so much better, smoother and usually gets a little better mileage, not to mention the fact that the car is now SAFE to drive and beat on, the #1 most important thing IMO.
Anyone that knows anything, knows that street tuning will NOT get you the most power, as most tuners won't mess with timing much on the dyno, with the exception of retarding it for boost to keep things safe. B/c as i'm sure you know, the dyno is the ONLY way to tune for max power. And the only way to tune timing, which will really get you the power out of the setup.
Besides most people go with a street tune b/c they don't wanna pay someone $500-1000 to dyno tune their car, so a street tune is a great alternative, it gets the car running great, gets everything safe, and will always make the car faster, b/c delivering the right amount of fuel is the first step in tuning for max power.
EDIT:
This of course applies to MOST dynos, like said before. There are a few dynos out there where you can do steady state tuning to get the entire fuel/ignition maps tuned. But again, that would take a fair bit of time on the dyno, and dyno time isn't cheap, never mind dyno tuning. $100/hr for dyno time alone is the pretty standard rate, then you pay someone to tune (most likely by the hour as well) and you've got yourself a pretty bill.
A street tune then 2-3 hour dyno tune will usually cost less than having your car tuned on a load type dyno.
Call neetronics and ask what they charge to dyno tune a car on their clayton dyno....paul told me he won't bring a car in for less than $800-1200.
Its good for many reasons. Like if you want fully tuned fuel/ignition maps, instead of just the WOT portions that dyno tuning well get tuned (in most cases).
Just to show you an idea of what i'm talking about. The area of the fuel map highlighted in blue is the part of the maps that will be tuned on the dyno on a typical boosted honda.
Now as you can see, thats only about 9 of 16 columns. Thats a little more than half of the fuel/ignition maps.
Where as street tuning will get the whole fuel/ignition maps tuned, not just the WOT portions.
Now, on a n/a car, the amount of the maps that get tuned while dyno tuning is less than 30%....or 3 of 10 columns.
This is what will get tuned on a n/a car on the dyno...again, street tuning will get the whole maps tuned.
Street tuning, is a great place to start for when you first get your setup going. I mean, JDMrice, what would you suggest, not getting it tuned at all until you put it on a dyno? Well good luck driving your car to the dyno after you put your nice big 440cc or larger injectors in your car (which is a MUST on a boosted setup) and it dumps mad fuel.
All of the cars i've street tuned, the owners always say the car runs so much better, smoother and usually gets a little better mileage, not to mention the fact that the car is now SAFE to drive and beat on, the #1 most important thing IMO.
Anyone that knows anything, knows that street tuning will NOT get you the most power, as most tuners won't mess with timing much on the dyno, with the exception of retarding it for boost to keep things safe. B/c as i'm sure you know, the dyno is the ONLY way to tune for max power. And the only way to tune timing, which will really get you the power out of the setup.
Besides most people go with a street tune b/c they don't wanna pay someone $500-1000 to dyno tune their car, so a street tune is a great alternative, it gets the car running great, gets everything safe, and will always make the car faster, b/c delivering the right amount of fuel is the first step in tuning for max power.
EDIT:
This of course applies to MOST dynos, like said before. There are a few dynos out there where you can do steady state tuning to get the entire fuel/ignition maps tuned. But again, that would take a fair bit of time on the dyno, and dyno time isn't cheap, never mind dyno tuning. $100/hr for dyno time alone is the pretty standard rate, then you pay someone to tune (most likely by the hour as well) and you've got yourself a pretty bill.
A street tune then 2-3 hour dyno tune will usually cost less than having your car tuned on a load type dyno.
Call neetronics and ask what they charge to dyno tune a car on their clayton dyno....paul told me he won't bring a car in for less than $800-1200.
07-Mar-2007, 12:56 AM
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 138
Originally posted by zeeman
ya, besides on MOST dynos in southern ontario you can't get 70% of the fuel/ignition maps truely tuned solidly. So street tuning isn't useless, that just shows how ignorant you are.
Its good for many reasons. Like if you want fully tuned fuel/ignition maps, instead of just the WOT portions that dyno tuning well get tuned (in most cases).
Just to show you an idea of what i'm talking about. The area of the fuel map highlighted in blue is the part of the maps that will be tuned on the dyno on a typical boosted honda.
Now as you can see, thats only about 9 of 16 columns. Thats a little more than half of the fuel/ignition maps.
Where as street tuning will get the whole fuel/ignition maps tuned, not just the WOT portions.
Now, on a n/a car, the amount of the maps that get tuned while dyno tuning is less than 30%....or 3 of 10 columns.
This is what will get tuned on a n/a car on the dyno...again, street tuning will get the whole maps tuned.
Street tuning, is a great place to start for when you first get your setup going. I mean, JDMrice, what would you suggest, not getting it tuned at all until you put it on a dyno? Well good luck driving your car to the dyno after you put your nice big 440cc or larger injectors in your car (which is a MUST on a boosted setup) and it dumps mad fuel.
All of the cars i've street tuned, the owners always say the car runs so much better, smoother and usually gets a little better mileage, not to mention the fact that the car is now SAFE to drive and beat on, the #1 most important thing IMO.
Anyone that knows anything, knows that street tuning will NOT get you the most power, as most tuners won't mess with timing much on the dyno, with the exception of retarding it for boost to keep things safe. B/c as i'm sure you know, the dyno is the ONLY way to tune for max power. And the only way to tune timing, which will really get you the power out of the setup.
Besides most people go with a street tune b/c they don't wanna pay someone $500-1000 to dyno tune their car, so a street tune is a great alternative, it gets the car running great, gets everything safe, and will always make the car faster, b/c delivering the right amount of fuel is the first step in tuning for max power.
EDIT:
This of course applies to MOST dynos, like said before. There are a few dynos out there where you can do steady state tuning to get the entire fuel/ignition maps tuned. But again, that would take a fair bit of time on the dyno, and dyno time isn't cheap, never mind dyno tuning. $100/hr for dyno time alone is the pretty standard rate, then you pay someone to tune (most likely by the hour as well) and you've got yourself a pretty bill.
A street tune then 2-3 hour dyno tune will usually cost less than having your car tuned on a load type dyno.
Call neetronics and ask what they charge to dyno tune a car on their clayton dyno....paul told me he won't bring a car in for less than $800-1200.
ya, besides on MOST dynos in southern ontario you can't get 70% of the fuel/ignition maps truely tuned solidly. So street tuning isn't useless, that just shows how ignorant you are.
Its good for many reasons. Like if you want fully tuned fuel/ignition maps, instead of just the WOT portions that dyno tuning well get tuned (in most cases).
Just to show you an idea of what i'm talking about. The area of the fuel map highlighted in blue is the part of the maps that will be tuned on the dyno on a typical boosted honda.
Now as you can see, thats only about 9 of 16 columns. Thats a little more than half of the fuel/ignition maps.
Where as street tuning will get the whole fuel/ignition maps tuned, not just the WOT portions.
Now, on a n/a car, the amount of the maps that get tuned while dyno tuning is less than 30%....or 3 of 10 columns.
This is what will get tuned on a n/a car on the dyno...again, street tuning will get the whole maps tuned.
Street tuning, is a great place to start for when you first get your setup going. I mean, JDMrice, what would you suggest, not getting it tuned at all until you put it on a dyno? Well good luck driving your car to the dyno after you put your nice big 440cc or larger injectors in your car (which is a MUST on a boosted setup) and it dumps mad fuel.
All of the cars i've street tuned, the owners always say the car runs so much better, smoother and usually gets a little better mileage, not to mention the fact that the car is now SAFE to drive and beat on, the #1 most important thing IMO.
Anyone that knows anything, knows that street tuning will NOT get you the most power, as most tuners won't mess with timing much on the dyno, with the exception of retarding it for boost to keep things safe. B/c as i'm sure you know, the dyno is the ONLY way to tune for max power. And the only way to tune timing, which will really get you the power out of the setup.
Besides most people go with a street tune b/c they don't wanna pay someone $500-1000 to dyno tune their car, so a street tune is a great alternative, it gets the car running great, gets everything safe, and will always make the car faster, b/c delivering the right amount of fuel is the first step in tuning for max power.
EDIT:
This of course applies to MOST dynos, like said before. There are a few dynos out there where you can do steady state tuning to get the entire fuel/ignition maps tuned. But again, that would take a fair bit of time on the dyno, and dyno time isn't cheap, never mind dyno tuning. $100/hr for dyno time alone is the pretty standard rate, then you pay someone to tune (most likely by the hour as well) and you've got yourself a pretty bill.
A street tune then 2-3 hour dyno tune will usually cost less than having your car tuned on a load type dyno.
Call neetronics and ask what they charge to dyno tune a car on their clayton dyno....paul told me he won't bring a car in for less than $800-1200.
07-Mar-2007, 09:37 AM
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 174
Street tuning is critical in my opinion, you just cant simulate ambient conditions. For example at a dyno you can put a fan on the front of the car, but is it the same as air rushing by your car?NO! Technicaly we should be street tuning first, then dyno tune for max power, and then street tune again to make sure everything is safe. Besides, unless you have the right dyno it's extremely hard to tune mid-range, and that's were we drive most. As for beating on my motor with just a street tune, sure I would assuming that your tuning with a wide-band and the motors not knocking. But you can't expect to get max power, that's all.
07-Mar-2007, 09:57 AM
#32
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 148
I agree with u Dave, Zeeman street tuned my car a while ago to get me on my way driving safely, then last week he dyno tuned it for max power, and he left the wideband in, and we drove on the street , while he made sure everything was ok. If i hadnt't street tuned first, i would have been on that dyno for even longer, I was already on for 3 and a half hours, at $100 a shot thats no joke. Time flies while ur dyno tuning, u have to wait for the car to cool down, a few wasted pulls, next thing u know ur time is up.
07-Mar-2007, 10:13 AM
#33
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: No fixed address
Posts: 2,990
Some good info there from Zeeman.
The only thing I don't like though is that there will be a large % of people that read this thread that will assume street "tuning" is a reasonable alternative to dyno tuning.
This is simply not the case.
Street "tuning" should really be viewed as dyno preperation and/or system shakedown.
{edit: haha - a few guys jumped in as I was typing... all going points}
The only thing I don't like though is that there will be a large % of people that read this thread that will assume street "tuning" is a reasonable alternative to dyno tuning.
This is simply not the case.
Street "tuning" should really be viewed as dyno preperation and/or system shakedown.
{edit: haha - a few guys jumped in as I was typing... all going points}
07-Mar-2007, 11:40 AM
#35
Originally posted by HAPPY
Some good info there from Zeeman.
The only thing I don't like though is that there will be a large % of people that read this thread that will assume street "tuning" is a reasonable alternative to dyno tuning.
This is simply not the case.
Street "tuning" should really be viewed as dyno preperation and/or system shakedown.
{edit: haha - a few guys jumped in as I was typing... all going points}
Some good info there from Zeeman.
The only thing I don't like though is that there will be a large % of people that read this thread that will assume street "tuning" is a reasonable alternative to dyno tuning.
This is simply not the case.
Street "tuning" should really be viewed as dyno preperation and/or system shakedown.
{edit: haha - a few guys jumped in as I was typing... all going points}
But for most people, a solid street tune is good enough. I explain this to every person whos car i tune, that dyno tuning is the ONLY way to get your car tuned for max power. But not everyone is concerned about getting their car tuned for max power. For a lot of people they just want their car to be safe, reliable and fun to drive....and thats exactly what street tuning will get you.
Like defcon dave said, wheres better to tune a car thats driven on the street everyday, than on the street? You can't emulate driving on the street on most dynos, or really any dynos, b.c like dave said you've only got a fan blowing air at your car while you're on the dyno.
In a perfect world, everyone would have the money/time or even care to get their car dyno tuned after street tuning, but thats not the case. And i can force people to take their car to the dyno.
This thread has lots and lots of good info in it, especially now that a few more of the actual tuners have put their input in.
07-Mar-2007, 12:15 PM
#36
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: In my house
Posts: 511
For a noob like me this is wealth of information, thanks guys, i've been asking questions here and there, but this thread has answered them all. Another "Bump" for the Zeeman, no matter what site I ask questions on your name comes up, your a wealth of knowledge, but even more commending is the fact you actually take the time to feedback your opinion to any person interested in tuning, whether its mild or wild. I keep saying i'm going to set up a time to have you tune my car, and true to my word I definately will. But as always time and money play factors in all this, with 2 kids and a wife time is extremely limited. Anyone interested in tuning defenately get in touch with the Zeeman, although I have yet to get my car tuned by him, I have no doubt in recomending him.
07-Mar-2007, 01:45 PM
#38
well, the guy at the dyno was giving paolo a hard time, he tried putting all of the dyno run files to a disk for paolo, so he could print them out by himself, but that didnt work properly.
So then paolo went back in asking for some dyno sheets and the ones Paolo posted were the ones the dyno guy printed out for him.
The dyno guy didn't give paolo a printout with the a/f graph, so no there is no a/f graph that he can post.
Whats that matter anyways?
If you've got a question about something, ask me, i don't bite.
So then paolo went back in asking for some dyno sheets and the ones Paolo posted were the ones the dyno guy printed out for him.
The dyno guy didn't give paolo a printout with the a/f graph, so no there is no a/f graph that he can post.
Whats that matter anyways?
If you've got a question about something, ask me, i don't bite.
07-Mar-2007, 02:03 PM
#39
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: No fixed address
Posts: 2,990
Originally posted by zeeman
Yes, i agree, to an extent.
But for most people, a solid street tune is good enough. I explain this to every person whos car i tune, that dyno tuning is the ONLY way to get your car tuned for max power. But not everyone is concerned about getting their car tuned for max power. For a lot of people they just want their car to be safe, reliable and fun to drive....and thats exactly what street tuning will get you.
Like defcon dave said, wheres better to tune a car thats driven on the street everyday, than on the street? You can't emulate driving on the street on most dynos, or really any dynos, b.c like dave said you've only got a fan blowing air at your car while you're on the dyno.
In a perfect world, everyone would have the money/time or even care to get their car dyno tuned after street tuning, but thats not the case. And i can force people to take their car to the dyno.
This thread has lots and lots of good info in it, especially now that a few more of the actual tuners have put their input in.
Yes, i agree, to an extent.
But for most people, a solid street tune is good enough. I explain this to every person whos car i tune, that dyno tuning is the ONLY way to get your car tuned for max power. But not everyone is concerned about getting their car tuned for max power. For a lot of people they just want their car to be safe, reliable and fun to drive....and thats exactly what street tuning will get you.
Like defcon dave said, wheres better to tune a car thats driven on the street everyday, than on the street? You can't emulate driving on the street on most dynos, or really any dynos, b.c like dave said you've only got a fan blowing air at your car while you're on the dyno.
In a perfect world, everyone would have the money/time or even care to get their car dyno tuned after street tuning, but thats not the case. And i can force people to take their car to the dyno.
This thread has lots and lots of good info in it, especially now that a few more of the actual tuners have put their input in.
Based on the results noted by you in this thread...I can not think of ANY one other modification that would net these kind of results for $350 (or whatever you paid for the dyno time). That is the cost of an AEM CAI...I've never seen one of those result in 72ft/lbs.
Obviously this is not going to happen on a mild N/A build but on any turbo car...a dyno tune is by far the best investment possible....as shown below
Originally posted by zeeman
[B]
If you compare his new dyno sheet to his old 91 octane street tune (with lots of timing pulled out for safety using the 91) at 5300 rpms he made 237ft/lbs while on his old 91 octane tune he made 165ft/lbs. So that is a net gain of 72ft/lbs at only 2psi more boost and a 94 octane dyno tune.
Just in terms of peak power (which isn't the most important thing) he picked up 42whp and 60ft/lbs.
Just for ***** and giggles i overlayed his old dyno sheet with his new one so you can really see the difference.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...osdynocopy4.jpg
[B]
If you compare his new dyno sheet to his old 91 octane street tune (with lots of timing pulled out for safety using the 91) at 5300 rpms he made 237ft/lbs while on his old 91 octane tune he made 165ft/lbs. So that is a net gain of 72ft/lbs at only 2psi more boost and a 94 octane dyno tune.
Just in terms of peak power (which isn't the most important thing) he picked up 42whp and 60ft/lbs.
Just for ***** and giggles i overlayed his old dyno sheet with his new one so you can really see the difference.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...osdynocopy4.jpg
07-Mar-2007, 02:16 PM
#40
i agree with you 100% HAPPY, but i can't speak for other people. And you're point about gaining 72 ft/lbs just solidifies why dyno tuning is so good. Like you said, there isn't any other thing that you could do that will gain you 72ft/lbs for $350, other than n20, but A) unless buying a used kit it'll cost more than $350 and B) unless you run a huge shot, you're not gunna gain 72ft/lbs.
But the majority of my customers come to me, b/c they don't wanna pay the expensive prices that shops charge, or b/c they want the good service i am known to give. So money is usually an issue, and we all know money doesn't grow on trees, and modding cars isn't cheap.
So a lot of people will come for a street tune, for now, while they can afford it. Then when funds permit come back for a dyno tune. Building a car, is usually a slow process, obtaining parts as funds permit.
But the majority of my customers come to me, b/c they don't wanna pay the expensive prices that shops charge, or b/c they want the good service i am known to give. So money is usually an issue, and we all know money doesn't grow on trees, and modding cars isn't cheap.
So a lot of people will come for a street tune, for now, while they can afford it. Then when funds permit come back for a dyno tune. Building a car, is usually a slow process, obtaining parts as funds permit.
