Why do "Heel-Toe" ??
25-Sep-2003, 01:47 AM
#1
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Why do "Heel-Toe" ??
I see racers do this to downshift while drift and stuff.
Can someone clarify why is this technique needed?
And how does it work for our Hondas?
Can someone clarify why is this technique needed?
And how does it work for our Hondas?
25-Sep-2003, 03:32 AM
#2
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i think its to keep the revs up and therefore in the max hp range of high revving motors (honda) to get the max power out of a corner after braking.
as for the actual procedure you'll have to ask someone who's done it before.
P.S. pic in sig is not working. could be cuz of the wrong bit at the end. should be [/img] and not what you have.
as for the actual procedure you'll have to ask someone who's done it before.
P.S. pic in sig is not working. could be cuz of the wrong bit at the end. should be [/img] and not what you have.
25-Sep-2003, 04:50 AM
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Hey thanks. Lets see if the pic works now....
25-Sep-2003, 04:50 AM
#4
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Hmmm. pic still didn't work. I wonder why......
25-Sep-2003, 08:10 AM
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the reason for it is so that your tranny doesn't get beaten up as much... cause say your going 60 and want to shift into 2nd... well if your syncro's are good you can just pop it into gear and let out the clutch.... no big deal really... but say your racing doing the same thing going 80.... the syncro's have a lot more work to bring the engine speed up to like 5000-6000 depending on tranny... likewise if your syncro's are shot then you have to heel-toe or double clutch....
i messed up my last tranny cause i raced it a fair bit and never knew about this... then when my syncro's went i learnt how to do it.... and now i do it all the time on my new tranny.... its worth getting someone to teach you or learning yourself like i did
i messed up my last tranny cause i raced it a fair bit and never knew about this... then when my syncro's went i learnt how to do it.... and now i do it all the time on my new tranny.... its worth getting someone to teach you or learning yourself like i did
25-Sep-2003, 08:11 AM
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i dont think yahoo likes outside linking to there photos or you got hte wrong link there too
25-Sep-2003, 08:21 AM
#7
you brake with the toe, and keep revs up with your heel... takes finnesse... if you are drifting, you gotta do it 1st to transfer weight to the front (brake), then hammer the rear wheels with power to get a power drift...
25-Sep-2003, 08:28 AM
#8
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if you shatty crappy tire petal covers you can place the gas and brake close together and you can actually use the ball of your foot for brake and left side for bliping the gas....
i found that its incredibly tricky to pull double clutch while at solo2 though cause all the turns are so close together.... so i found myself just putting in first gear which the new trannydoesn't mind... i gotta practice on getting quiker with it
i found that its incredibly tricky to pull double clutch while at solo2 though cause all the turns are so close together.... so i found myself just putting in first gear which the new trannydoesn't mind... i gotta practice on getting quiker with it
25-Sep-2003, 10:06 AM
#9
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for a downshift the heel and toe is used with the double clutch while in a braking zone ....
example: heading into the haripin turn on the DDT at mosport... you'd be in 3rd gear and it's a 2nd gear corner. well being at the top end of third you have to brake so your hard on the brakes till the speed is slow enough to start the shift to 2nd. when that point happens it's tap the clutch shift to N then release the clutch and with the heel of your right foot tap the gas to get the revs up (whiule keeping the toe on the brake pedal because you still have to slow down) then it's off the gas tap the clutch pop into 2nd release clutch and bam your set up for that corner continue slowing down as your entering the corner apex and hard on the gas ... upshift after the exit and your on your way.....
ok now for a bit more info (the stuff no one here would tell you) when you brake that part of the foot that should be connected with the brake pedal is the ball of the foot ...(if your toes are pointed north it's directly south of the big toe... ) and when you hit the gas it's not the heel that hits but the right side of your foot because your actually just rolling the foot and changing the angle... it makes it easier to perform in a cramped honda civic with the pedals farther away then most high end sports cars.
example: heading into the haripin turn on the DDT at mosport... you'd be in 3rd gear and it's a 2nd gear corner. well being at the top end of third you have to brake so your hard on the brakes till the speed is slow enough to start the shift to 2nd. when that point happens it's tap the clutch shift to N then release the clutch and with the heel of your right foot tap the gas to get the revs up (whiule keeping the toe on the brake pedal because you still have to slow down) then it's off the gas tap the clutch pop into 2nd release clutch and bam your set up for that corner continue slowing down as your entering the corner apex and hard on the gas ... upshift after the exit and your on your way.....
ok now for a bit more info (the stuff no one here would tell you) when you brake that part of the foot that should be connected with the brake pedal is the ball of the foot ...(if your toes are pointed north it's directly south of the big toe... ) and when you hit the gas it's not the heel that hits but the right side of your foot because your actually just rolling the foot and changing the angle... it makes it easier to perform in a cramped honda civic with the pedals farther away then most high end sports cars.
25-Sep-2003, 11:21 PM
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Hmmmm..
Very interesting. I guess I go and put the Gas pegal cover back on and try this. ( I took the Gas depal cover off, since it was too close to brake and therefore would mix up the braking with acceleration). But now that I'm better with the pedals, I think I could manage it.
Thanks guys. Good info. However, I think this technique is useful only if you are racing and drifting and stuff like that. It doesn't seem to be very practical in city driving.
But then who knows, it might come in handy one day!!
Thanks for the info!
Very interesting. I guess I go and put the Gas pegal cover back on and try this. ( I took the Gas depal cover off, since it was too close to brake and therefore would mix up the braking with acceleration). But now that I'm better with the pedals, I think I could manage it.
Thanks guys. Good info. However, I think this technique is useful only if you are racing and drifting and stuff like that. It doesn't seem to be very practical in city driving.
But then who knows, it might come in handy one day!!
Thanks for the info!
25-Sep-2003, 11:35 PM
#11
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It might be practical if you like to drive like an *** in town. :P - or need to get away from the cops fast.. naughty!!
26-Sep-2003, 12:22 AM
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double clutching is for cars that are broken or built in the 50's and if you do it in a civic at all you are a complete idiot casue it will NEVER help you in solo, track or street racing. it takes an obscene amount of time and slows you down significantly in each shift as well as tossing off weight distribution.
heel toe is used in most cases to save your cars synchros, this is true but it does have other purposes.
By rpm matching you will be able to hit the gas imediatly after the shift thus not having to wait for the synchros to match up allows you to improve responce time and have more time with the power at the wheels. this is primarly used while entering corners in grip driving aloowing you to use the braking force of the tranny and then put the power to work on the way out of the corner and through the turn...
in drift things are a bit more complicated. heel tooe is then used far more to create a better balance for weight distribution as well as placment of the car in the curve....in a perfect four wheel drift (this can't be done in a FWD honda so dont tell me about hoow you do it all the time) your froon wheels dictate directional control while your rear wheels are pushing from the outside to keep you moving through the turn and force the car's mass to the inside of the turn. this means that by applying brakes will place more of the cars weight to the front side of the car (in a LHD car in a left hand turn this would be the passengers side cause it leads) however this weight transfer can not be done while removing yoru foot from the throttle cause it will cause your loss of traction to disapate and place you back in a grip position if your rear wheels catch and are put back behind the car by he front end's enertia.
as for what part of the foot you use or how to position yourself I CANT TELL YOU AND NEITHER CAN ANYONE ELSE. they can give you ideas and we can tell you whats important but it's really a driver prefrence thing. the most important thing is that you have a good contact with the pedals cause if your foot slips off and you al of asudden loose throttle or brake control in a corner that can be very dangerous.
heel-toe, double clutching and clutchless shifting all have thier places and should be used when they are needed..also slap cluthcing half shifting. early release and clutch burning are all valuable things to knwo but if you are dealing with a daily driver and you want your car to last.. rpm matchign isnt heel toe and downshifting isnt braking. it's much cheaper to replace brake pads than clutches.
PunkInDrublic
if you were double clutching in solo you are an idiot. how could clutching twice in a honda possibly improve power outpput or responce and improve your time? did you signal your turns too?
bbarbulo
i think you need to drift a bit more in rwd. usally being at high torque ranges and placing alot of weight in the outside of the turn allow you to break traction easily however a good drifter starts his pitch before the turn and would be sideways earlyer than his shifts...the weight is based on handeling not heel toe. keep in mind that a great drift requires no breaking at all only throttle control and steering.
gatherer
double clutchign and heel toe are very rarely used together and again if you are double clutching on the track you are foolish. this example was good but ther was no reason to shift to N before gogin to 2nd if you had alredy hit the brakes your rpms should have gone from 6000 down to 3-4000 and would be perfect to drop directly into second for the corner so you couldd actually start excelerating earler and thus creating a higher exit speed through more power being applied to the ground. and if you knwo racing you would know that braking a bit more to have more speed after a turn is nearly ALWAYS benificial.
Gatsby
it think the only good responce her was the first one you got cause he didnt try to talk **** about things he knew nothing about
iam_immigrant
good responce but i would add the words "properly and effectivly" to the statment...
i am not tryign to diss anyone but if someone ask why you heel toe and you tell them cause it sounds pimp when i am slowing down for a light by downshifting and the people behind me wonder wwhy my brakelights dont go on i am goign to tell them you are a newb adn a poser...come on peopel i dont doubt tha tyou have raced and that you know a few things abotu neons and altezza's but seriously if you dont have the right answer dont just run your yap!
heel toe is used in most cases to save your cars synchros, this is true but it does have other purposes.
By rpm matching you will be able to hit the gas imediatly after the shift thus not having to wait for the synchros to match up allows you to improve responce time and have more time with the power at the wheels. this is primarly used while entering corners in grip driving aloowing you to use the braking force of the tranny and then put the power to work on the way out of the corner and through the turn...
in drift things are a bit more complicated. heel tooe is then used far more to create a better balance for weight distribution as well as placment of the car in the curve....in a perfect four wheel drift (this can't be done in a FWD honda so dont tell me about hoow you do it all the time) your froon wheels dictate directional control while your rear wheels are pushing from the outside to keep you moving through the turn and force the car's mass to the inside of the turn. this means that by applying brakes will place more of the cars weight to the front side of the car (in a LHD car in a left hand turn this would be the passengers side cause it leads) however this weight transfer can not be done while removing yoru foot from the throttle cause it will cause your loss of traction to disapate and place you back in a grip position if your rear wheels catch and are put back behind the car by he front end's enertia.
as for what part of the foot you use or how to position yourself I CANT TELL YOU AND NEITHER CAN ANYONE ELSE. they can give you ideas and we can tell you whats important but it's really a driver prefrence thing. the most important thing is that you have a good contact with the pedals cause if your foot slips off and you al of asudden loose throttle or brake control in a corner that can be very dangerous.
heel-toe, double clutching and clutchless shifting all have thier places and should be used when they are needed..also slap cluthcing half shifting. early release and clutch burning are all valuable things to knwo but if you are dealing with a daily driver and you want your car to last.. rpm matchign isnt heel toe and downshifting isnt braking. it's much cheaper to replace brake pads than clutches.
PunkInDrublic
if you were double clutching in solo you are an idiot. how could clutching twice in a honda possibly improve power outpput or responce and improve your time? did you signal your turns too?
bbarbulo
i think you need to drift a bit more in rwd. usally being at high torque ranges and placing alot of weight in the outside of the turn allow you to break traction easily however a good drifter starts his pitch before the turn and would be sideways earlyer than his shifts...the weight is based on handeling not heel toe. keep in mind that a great drift requires no breaking at all only throttle control and steering.
gatherer
double clutchign and heel toe are very rarely used together and again if you are double clutching on the track you are foolish. this example was good but ther was no reason to shift to N before gogin to 2nd if you had alredy hit the brakes your rpms should have gone from 6000 down to 3-4000 and would be perfect to drop directly into second for the corner so you couldd actually start excelerating earler and thus creating a higher exit speed through more power being applied to the ground. and if you knwo racing you would know that braking a bit more to have more speed after a turn is nearly ALWAYS benificial.
Gatsby
it think the only good responce her was the first one you got cause he didnt try to talk **** about things he knew nothing about
iam_immigrant
good responce but i would add the words "properly and effectivly" to the statment...
i am not tryign to diss anyone but if someone ask why you heel toe and you tell them cause it sounds pimp when i am slowing down for a light by downshifting and the people behind me wonder wwhy my brakelights dont go on i am goign to tell them you are a newb adn a poser...come on peopel i dont doubt tha tyou have raced and that you know a few things abotu neons and altezza's but seriously if you dont have the right answer dont just run your yap!
26-Sep-2003, 11:34 AM
#13
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i caught a fish this big...
26-Sep-2003, 01:28 PM
#14
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Hey
I have been practicing heel and teo braking and it seems pretty usefull in every day driving. Now i aint no expert, but i do want to share my experiences.
I found it very useful when cornering. It seems the car is more stable and easier to control when the car is in a lower gear through a corner. And heel and toeing is a nice way to get it into that gear without to much drama and jerking.
In traffic i always seemed to be ready and in the perfect gear for lane changes and such. I used to just stick to my lane before instead of going through the hassle of finding the right gear after braking.
And i believe in turbo car they are a great way of keep boost up while braking through a corner. so u get more power coming out of the corner, assuming u didnt' down shift.
I have been practicing heel and teo braking and it seems pretty usefull in every day driving. Now i aint no expert, but i do want to share my experiences.
I found it very useful when cornering. It seems the car is more stable and easier to control when the car is in a lower gear through a corner. And heel and toeing is a nice way to get it into that gear without to much drama and jerking.
In traffic i always seemed to be ready and in the perfect gear for lane changes and such. I used to just stick to my lane before instead of going through the hassle of finding the right gear after braking.
And i believe in turbo car they are a great way of keep boost up while braking through a corner. so u get more power coming out of the corner, assuming u didnt' down shift.
26-Sep-2003, 01:42 PM
#15
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I heel-and-toe (even though you're really more just rolling your foot) and do it well. It has its purposes.
I do not double-clutch. It serves no purpose on modern cars. Go drive a semi-truck if you want to double-clutch.
:P
I do not double-clutch. It serves no purpose on modern cars. Go drive a semi-truck if you want to double-clutch.
:P
26-Sep-2003, 02:04 PM
#16
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Originally posted by MartinGouda
double clutching is for cars that are broken or built in the 50's and if you do it in a civic at all you are a complete idiot casue it will NEVER help you in solo, track or street racing. it takes an obscene amount of time and slows you down significantly in each shift as well as tossing off weight distribution.
gatherer
double clutchign and heel toe are very rarely used together and again if you are double clutching on the track you are foolish. this example was good but ther was no reason to shift to N before gogin to 2nd if you had alredy hit the brakes your rpms should have gone from 6000 down to 3-4000 and would be perfect to drop directly into second for the corner so you couldd actually start excelerating earler and thus creating a higher exit speed through more power being applied to the ground. and if you knwo racing you would know that braking a bit more to have more speed after a turn is nearly ALWAYS benificial.
double clutching is for cars that are broken or built in the 50's and if you do it in a civic at all you are a complete idiot casue it will NEVER help you in solo, track or street racing. it takes an obscene amount of time and slows you down significantly in each shift as well as tossing off weight distribution.
gatherer
double clutchign and heel toe are very rarely used together and again if you are double clutching on the track you are foolish. this example was good but ther was no reason to shift to N before gogin to 2nd if you had alredy hit the brakes your rpms should have gone from 6000 down to 3-4000 and would be perfect to drop directly into second for the corner so you couldd actually start excelerating earler and thus creating a higher exit speed through more power being applied to the ground. and if you knwo racing you would know that braking a bit more to have more speed after a turn is nearly ALWAYS benificial.
this technique is used by every single person that I've had the opportunity to ride along with .... they all double clutch ... they all heel and toe.... what any racing ... WRC rally on TV comes to mind where they show the drivers feet and you'll see left foot braking double clutching and heel and toe all in use...
and I've ridden in about 30 different race cars just observing foot techniques ... since that is where some of my troubles are..
if you want proof of why this is done .. when slowing down to the next traffic light you come too where your going 60km/h+ try to put it in first when you hit 40.... you'll realize you get locked out of the gear ... I don't... because I heel and toe.... race car drivers do it too here's why:
my gears and when they top out
1st 50km/h
2nd 90km/h
3rd 150km/h
(the rest arn't needed)
if I'm on a straight away doing 150 top end of third and hit the braking zone I'm going to start slowing down if the turn is a 60km/h hair pin I'm going to gear down to second using a heel and toe double clutch to be nice to the synchros and to not cause any jerky motions that could upset the car... I'm going to start this whne I hit 100km/h by the time I'm done I've slowed to 90 I'm in second and still slowing...I then start the turn when trail braking for it... then as I get to 60km/h I lift off the brake and start slowly on the gas and then bam I'm apexing the corner and powering out...
why do I shift before the turn?
so that I can have both hands on the wheel and keep control of the car.
why did I heel and toe and double clutch?
to balance the wieght transfer of the car and elimate any jerky motion that would be caused by just shifting....also just shifting is slower as well, why because the car jerks you have to re balance the car so that you don't end up being nicknamed "lawnmower man" and because synchros take time to do their work and it's faster when you do it right.
why did I even bother responding to this thread originally?
because I know Gatsby was looking for good information. and he showed interest in the sport.
why did I respond to you?
because I know what I'm talking about. I have the experience to prove it and I've done the techniques and not done them and I know how it affects lap time. the HADA lapping day at the DDT this year was a great way to try this out and learn... all the techniques, double clutching, heel toe, left foot braking, etc. have a place on the track since that is where they were developed. it was not your average person that decided to come up with this it was race car drivers that through testing found quickier ways to brake and get through a corner and faster ways to shift...
I think next time I won't bother since most people like to argue with me....
26-Sep-2003, 02:08 PM
#17
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you'd have one busted *** tranny and/or syncro's making them bring the engine speed up to 6000 rpms by them selves over and over
26-Sep-2003, 02:15 PM
#18
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Originally posted by ryanhook
I heel-and-toe (even though you're really more just rolling your foot) and do it well. It has its purposes.
I do not double-clutch. It serves no purpose on modern cars. Go drive a semi-truck if you want to double-clutch.
:P
I heel-and-toe (even though you're really more just rolling your foot) and do it well. It has its purposes.
I do not double-clutch. It serves no purpose on modern cars. Go drive a semi-truck if you want to double-clutch.
:P
since a double clutch is used for a down shift.
a double clutch
hit the clutch
shift to N
release clutch
tap gas
hit clutch
shift to lower gear
release clutch
well a Heel toe is when you have to do the above while braking...
so it becomes:
brake
hit clutch
shift to N
release clutch
roll onto gas (while staying on brake)
press clutch
shift to lower gear
release clutch
so as you can see the double clutch is needed if your heel and toeing... if you want to shift without hitting the gas and tehrefore not do a double clutch the result would be no need to hit the gas and therefore no heel toe action is required....
therefore at the heel toe's very roots is the double clutch. This is because Heel and toe is a modified double clutch.
ok I'm done now
26-Sep-2003, 02:43 PM
#19
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if your crafty you can heel and toe without using the clutch at all... that was my dream way in the tempo days
26-Sep-2003, 02:50 PM
#20
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K side question..
about the synchro matching..
say im in 3rd, i wanna downshift to second can't I just..
Press clutch in,
Shift into second,
press gas to match rpm,
and release clutch?
I don't need to release clutch in N first do I?!
about the synchro matching..
say im in 3rd, i wanna downshift to second can't I just..
Press clutch in,
Shift into second,
press gas to match rpm,
and release clutch?
I don't need to release clutch in N first do I?!
