Whats Up With Acura?
29-Feb-2008, 11:03 PM
#1
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Whats Up With Acura?
After visiting the toronto auto show recently, i found myself scratching my head and thinking as to what in the world is up with the folks at Acura? After checking out the vehicles at other premier brands, i got the feeling that Acura is simply falling behind both in terms of newness, variety of vehicles available and innovation.
For those who went to the show, you must have noticed that Acura...and Honda as well, had nothing new to offer for the 2008 lineup..or not atleast at the show. Honda is still different than Acura in terms of the market they are covering....the new Civic is still a very strong contender in its segment, the CRV is still refined and well placed..though it has alot of competition in its class of late but again looking at Acura.....it was disappointment.
So i decided to put down a model by model analysis that i went through.
ACURA RL:
When you say flagship...you only mean the BEST you have to offer..both in terms of within the lineup itself and then compared to the competition. To me, Acura RL is a wrong car which doesnt make any sense. Why should i pay a premium price on a V6 vehicle? Its underpowered, its not RWD (not that it really has to cuz i guess it does come with Honda's SHAWD option) has less features than the LS460 and the Infiniti M etc. plus sales have been under plan as reported by Honda itself.....i dont remember seeing much advertising on this model as well. The latest generation never received a facelift either.
ACURA TL:
Overall a very nice car but whoever thought of introducing a Type-S version with FWD must be in sleep mode. I am sure there are some intelligent brains working at Honda but why the half hearted attempt in introducing something better. Why the rear seats dont split and fold down? Consumer reports have been having a field day with this one issue.
The price is another one. At 47K before taxes for us canadians, there is an awful lot of choice available to get something better.
ACURA TSX:
Same story here too.....nothing has changed from 2004 to uptil now...exception being rims and a minor blip in HP moving upto 206. The design feels old and outdated now. The TSX is a great car (i always wanted one and infact almost bought one this past december but then went for the Si instead due to budget issues) and if you compare it with the G35 and IS250, it offers most among the three...atleast thats what i found after i did my rsearch.
Contrary to alot of discussion and expectation, the 2009 TSX will not come with the K23 turbo motor. A disappointment for the honda enthusiast community for sure..lol but thats the word out there. The redesigned 09 model will be on display in NY next month however. Here is a picture....
201 HP with 172 lbs of torque....not too disappointing but i read that a diesel engine is in the works and if so...the first japanese manufacturer to do so. Infact it is rumoured that Honda will be launching multiple models with diesel motor options around 2010.
ACURA CSX:
This car is a no brainer now.....what does the new civic lineup doesnt offer that the CSX does. Well i know the brand name Acura...which doesnt matter much cuz the buyers are smart. The type-s was good news but at a price tag higher than the equity in my home...no thank you. For 3 grand extra...you can buy the TSX. Maybe Honda wants it die a slow death but expanding the civic lineup so much...maybe.
Also...Lexus and Infiniti does not offer any comparable cars of this class. If that matters to anyone.
OVERALL
Reliability is one thing...as most of us honda owners feel proud about but for how long you expect to churn out max V6 sub 300hp models all across (torque being even lower) Look at how much Infiniti, Lexus and the top teir german manufacturers have to offer. Sadly...reliability is Acura's only saving grace. The econobox status can not make you last very long in today's and more Importantly, the future car market in north america.
Lets see how the all new TSX, TL and RL look like for 2009. Cant wait to see the new models.
Discuss....
For those who went to the show, you must have noticed that Acura...and Honda as well, had nothing new to offer for the 2008 lineup..or not atleast at the show. Honda is still different than Acura in terms of the market they are covering....the new Civic is still a very strong contender in its segment, the CRV is still refined and well placed..though it has alot of competition in its class of late but again looking at Acura.....it was disappointment.
So i decided to put down a model by model analysis that i went through.
ACURA RL:
When you say flagship...you only mean the BEST you have to offer..both in terms of within the lineup itself and then compared to the competition. To me, Acura RL is a wrong car which doesnt make any sense. Why should i pay a premium price on a V6 vehicle? Its underpowered, its not RWD (not that it really has to cuz i guess it does come with Honda's SHAWD option) has less features than the LS460 and the Infiniti M etc. plus sales have been under plan as reported by Honda itself.....i dont remember seeing much advertising on this model as well. The latest generation never received a facelift either.
ACURA TL:
Overall a very nice car but whoever thought of introducing a Type-S version with FWD must be in sleep mode. I am sure there are some intelligent brains working at Honda but why the half hearted attempt in introducing something better. Why the rear seats dont split and fold down? Consumer reports have been having a field day with this one issue.
The price is another one. At 47K before taxes for us canadians, there is an awful lot of choice available to get something better.
ACURA TSX:
Same story here too.....nothing has changed from 2004 to uptil now...exception being rims and a minor blip in HP moving upto 206. The design feels old and outdated now. The TSX is a great car (i always wanted one and infact almost bought one this past december but then went for the Si instead due to budget issues) and if you compare it with the G35 and IS250, it offers most among the three...atleast thats what i found after i did my rsearch.
Contrary to alot of discussion and expectation, the 2009 TSX will not come with the K23 turbo motor. A disappointment for the honda enthusiast community for sure..lol but thats the word out there. The redesigned 09 model will be on display in NY next month however. Here is a picture....
201 HP with 172 lbs of torque....not too disappointing but i read that a diesel engine is in the works and if so...the first japanese manufacturer to do so. Infact it is rumoured that Honda will be launching multiple models with diesel motor options around 2010.
ACURA CSX:
This car is a no brainer now.....what does the new civic lineup doesnt offer that the CSX does. Well i know the brand name Acura...which doesnt matter much cuz the buyers are smart. The type-s was good news but at a price tag higher than the equity in my home...no thank you. For 3 grand extra...you can buy the TSX. Maybe Honda wants it die a slow death but expanding the civic lineup so much...maybe.
Also...Lexus and Infiniti does not offer any comparable cars of this class. If that matters to anyone.
OVERALL
Reliability is one thing...as most of us honda owners feel proud about but for how long you expect to churn out max V6 sub 300hp models all across (torque being even lower) Look at how much Infiniti, Lexus and the top teir german manufacturers have to offer. Sadly...reliability is Acura's only saving grace. The econobox status can not make you last very long in today's and more Importantly, the future car market in north america.
Lets see how the all new TSX, TL and RL look like for 2009. Cant wait to see the new models.
Discuss....
01-Mar-2008, 12:39 AM
#5
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I was talking to some Internal Honda guys they were sayin the NSX will be coming back And in a big way I Can't recall exact details but v10 Mid front engine and a small 2 door acura to replace the rsx is in the works But shh i didn't say anything lol
01-Mar-2008, 08:39 AM
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01-Mar-2008, 12:18 PM
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yes and for a long time. with honda trendsetting its image as best low emission manufacturer...diesels make perfect sense. its a win win situation.
01-Mar-2008, 12:41 PM
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Well in that case it looks like they are going to be in a huge transition right now for a while. Lets hope that the vehicles in the works bring back the sporty/luxury that people are looking for the honda classes dont offer...although most hondas are offering a lot of luxury options now. I would be interested in seeing this new 2 door coupe in the works. I hope its a different look then the CRZ, that should be solely honda. I heard that its DTEC engine is going to produce around 200 HP. Maybe the new acura 2 door coupe could have that turbo engine from the RDX 
that would be awesome and attract a lot of buyers from pherhaps other cars such as a WRX or high version Lancer.
that would be awesome and attract a lot of buyers from pherhaps other cars such as a WRX or high version Lancer.
01-Mar-2008, 02:25 PM
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01-Mar-2008, 06:41 PM
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Given the choice if I had the money for a performance sedan like an STi or a luxury sedan like a TL, I'd take the STi hands down. But thats me.
I agree the TL, TSX models are becoming a little out-dated. Also, I think the CSX model is a waste. Just save your money and buy a civic, it's the same car.
I agree the TL, TSX models are becoming a little out-dated. Also, I think the CSX model is a waste. Just save your money and buy a civic, it's the same car.
01-Mar-2008, 08:06 PM
#15
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yea, TL is not for young drivers its marketed toward more mature business like middle aged men with $$$
lol, exactly, in the business world, there is a saying" why sell somthing different when its selling strong" similar to the "why fix something thats not broken" quote.
they only update and give a vehicle a freesh look when the vehicle drops dramatically in sales, or it becomes too obvious that the design of the vehicle is out dated and is hindering sales.
take the jeep cherokee for an example, it had basically the same box shape for 20 years and from 1992 to 2001 models you could barely tell a difference. even i love that desgin till today, and they didn't change it because it sold like ****, after they changed the whole jeep line up of designs sales dropped like crazy, but they went back, look at the 2008 wrangler from the 2006-7 models its way more boxy and squarish now with the new 2008-9 model and looks sick, they even re-introduced a jeep called "patriot" as a jeep cherokee replacement, look at the commander, same thing, and im starting to see these jeeps every where specially the new patriot i.e jeep chrokee replacement, it basically would be that same jeep if it was up dated from 2002, its final year, to today. so design is very important.
As for Acura, they were one of the first ones to come out with the new designs around 2000 to 2003 and everyone else followed, since then almost every car company out there has really impressive futuristic models running on the road today because of that,and they seem still new, becasue they came out with their designs later in the years.
i remember when the TSX and TL came out it was like Acura had cars comming out of a ufo movie, they were very futuristic. and now they seem average because their design life is expiring, thats the time it takes for the design of a vehicle to become oudated as it passes through its maturity life cycle.
and to be honest i love the current acura designs, another reason is also, they may deside not to change or even update a design till few more years pass, because if they came out with something new, it would create huge risks, like people hating the design, because they liked the older one, or the new one is too futuristic and fans turn away.As well as it could be the current vechicle models have not fully exhausted the revenue of the current models, i belive marketing has a life cycle system for ever product.
Changing things right now will have financial risk as current stable sales trends are good,the design has tack record in the market, another major issue is the cost, if a company dosen't recover cost of its current project i.e car designs from 2002 to 2004, or if they haven't reached the sales forcast they will not spend millions in new design and tests for a newer vehicle because few people didn't like its current successful desgin at a autoshow. So staying current outweighs more then changing everything right now for Acura, like some one said here they are comming up with the new NSX so, untill they are done with that project its unlikely they would come up with something new in the tl and the like. plus it could also simple mean they are still working on a newer 2012 model, because the engine technology is changing rapidly now.
lol, exactly, in the business world, there is a saying" why sell somthing different when its selling strong" similar to the "why fix something thats not broken" quote.
they only update and give a vehicle a freesh look when the vehicle drops dramatically in sales, or it becomes too obvious that the design of the vehicle is out dated and is hindering sales.
take the jeep cherokee for an example, it had basically the same box shape for 20 years and from 1992 to 2001 models you could barely tell a difference. even i love that desgin till today, and they didn't change it because it sold like ****, after they changed the whole jeep line up of designs sales dropped like crazy, but they went back, look at the 2008 wrangler from the 2006-7 models its way more boxy and squarish now with the new 2008-9 model and looks sick, they even re-introduced a jeep called "patriot" as a jeep cherokee replacement, look at the commander, same thing, and im starting to see these jeeps every where specially the new patriot i.e jeep chrokee replacement, it basically would be that same jeep if it was up dated from 2002, its final year, to today. so design is very important.
As for Acura, they were one of the first ones to come out with the new designs around 2000 to 2003 and everyone else followed, since then almost every car company out there has really impressive futuristic models running on the road today because of that,and they seem still new, becasue they came out with their designs later in the years.
i remember when the TSX and TL came out it was like Acura had cars comming out of a ufo movie, they were very futuristic. and now they seem average because their design life is expiring, thats the time it takes for the design of a vehicle to become oudated as it passes through its maturity life cycle.
and to be honest i love the current acura designs, another reason is also, they may deside not to change or even update a design till few more years pass, because if they came out with something new, it would create huge risks, like people hating the design, because they liked the older one, or the new one is too futuristic and fans turn away.As well as it could be the current vechicle models have not fully exhausted the revenue of the current models, i belive marketing has a life cycle system for ever product.
Changing things right now will have financial risk as current stable sales trends are good,the design has tack record in the market, another major issue is the cost, if a company dosen't recover cost of its current project i.e car designs from 2002 to 2004, or if they haven't reached the sales forcast they will not spend millions in new design and tests for a newer vehicle because few people didn't like its current successful desgin at a autoshow. So staying current outweighs more then changing everything right now for Acura, like some one said here they are comming up with the new NSX so, untill they are done with that project its unlikely they would come up with something new in the tl and the like. plus it could also simple mean they are still working on a newer 2012 model, because the engine technology is changing rapidly now.
Last edited by ForSale; 01-Mar-2008 at 08:24 PM.
01-Mar-2008, 09:08 PM
#16
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Acura owners are very brand conscious and as long as the car has that A symbol on it, it won't matter if the car lacks some power or options that its competitors have. They are paying for high quality, extremely well designed and engineered, reliable cars.
I think that new TSX is one sweet car regardless if it lacks a little for some other cars in its price range.
An EVO or STI is a pure performance/ricer fan-boy car and a pretentious RL owner probably wouldn't be caught dead driving one.
I think that new TSX is one sweet car regardless if it lacks a little for some other cars in its price range.
An EVO or STI is a pure performance/ricer fan-boy car and a pretentious RL owner probably wouldn't be caught dead driving one.
01-Mar-2008, 10:55 PM
#17
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Acura owners are very brand conscious and as long as the car has that A symbol on it, it won't matter if the car lacks some power or options that its competitors have. They are paying for high quality, extremely well designed and engineered, reliable cars.
I think that new TSX is one sweet car regardless if it lacks a little for some other cars in its price range.
An EVO or STI is a pure performance/ricer fan-boy car and a pretentious RL owner probably wouldn't be caught dead driving one.
I think that new TSX is one sweet car regardless if it lacks a little for some other cars in its price range.
An EVO or STI is a pure performance/ricer fan-boy car and a pretentious RL owner probably wouldn't be caught dead driving one.
very true.
Why do you think that they dont have Acura in Japan??? Because people in Japan know that deep down that car with the A on it is a Honda where here ppl dont care and would give in and spend a bit extra for something that they think is better...i find this more noteable with the EL and CRX from late 90's to present. People in Japan would rather have it a honda then an Acura, and just have the Type R version for example...like the new type r there...IMO its 10x better then a CRX here and cheaper prolly too..dont quote me on that tho :S lol
02-Mar-2008, 01:12 AM
#18
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Posts: 858
Acura owners are very brand conscious and as long as the car has that A symbol on it, it won't matter if the car lacks some power or options that its competitors have. They are paying for high quality, extremely well designed and engineered, reliable cars.
I think that new TSX is one sweet car regardless if it lacks a little for some other cars in its price range.
An EVO or STI is a pure performance/ricer fan-boy car and a pretentious RL owner probably wouldn't be caught dead driving one.
I think that new TSX is one sweet car regardless if it lacks a little for some other cars in its price range.
An EVO or STI is a pure performance/ricer fan-boy car and a pretentious RL owner probably wouldn't be caught dead driving one.
I strongly agree.
As for the sti and evo, i think thats become more of a who's got the $$$ now, before it was about guys with low dow.lol with used awd imprezas tuning it for streets, and now its like oh, look im going to go to a show room throw down 45k and walk out with a 300hp turbo evo or sti, i mean for such cars its NOT worth the $$$, these cars are better built used from the ground up.
sadly this is becoming a trend, car companies are back stabbing us tuners, because they are taking our hobby away from us by providing the rich kiddies 13sec lunc boxes straight out of the showroom, its become like todays rap and hip hop, oh look at my bitch with the huge **** and my bank balance ten fold, with my bling all around my neck like a two dollar hooker swinging the pole.lol
anyways, yea, Acura is the luxury devision of Honda so we shouldn't be complaining, as for the 300hp tl and all, the is fkin powerful, its in the new 2008 350z catagory.as for the low torque, im sure if you went full throttle in one you would not be complaining.
02-Mar-2008, 05:35 PM
#19
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very true.
Why do you think that they dont have Acura in Japan??? Because people in Japan know that deep down that car with the A on it is a Honda where here ppl dont care and would give in and spend a bit extra for something that they think is better...i find this more noteable with the EL and CRX from late 90's to present. People in Japan would rather have it a honda then an Acura, and just have the Type R version for example...like the new type r there...IMO its 10x better then a CRX here and cheaper prolly too..dont quote me on that tho :S lol
Why do you think that they dont have Acura in Japan??? Because people in Japan know that deep down that car with the A on it is a Honda where here ppl dont care and would give in and spend a bit extra for something that they think is better...i find this more noteable with the EL and CRX from late 90's to present. People in Japan would rather have it a honda then an Acura, and just have the Type R version for example...like the new type r there...IMO its 10x better then a CRX here and cheaper prolly too..dont quote me on that tho :S lol
But the Acura brand is going international in a 2 years or so, including Japan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acura
One nice thing about the EL/CSX was it was slightly (and I say slightly) less common then the comparable Civic, even though you had the same car (more or less), and looked a little nicer typically......
02-Mar-2008, 08:51 PM
#20
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some of you folks missed the point. the point is not that acura has BAD cars out there...they dont cuz they are well made cars no doubt but if you compare the competition....specially over the last five years, acura in my opinion does not hold the competitive position than its big counterparts do. things that matter the industry are design refresh, multiple trims within a model range (the one acura looses out alot...type-s brand was launched just over a year ago) etc. this is no heresay....i read through the stats in Honda's annual report plus a couple of industry news articles available for research purposes at the bank. some examples are as follows:
January 2008 Sales
http://www.hondabeat.com/sales_stats.php
WY 2007 Sales
Acura Total Car Sales 98,142 137,938 -29.1%
RL 6,262 11,501 -45.7%
TL * 58,545 71,348 -18.2%
TSX 33,037 38,035 -13.4%
The above info is publicly available or look up honda's website. I confirmed the numbers from industry investment research reports available to me at work. The numbers prove just what i thought....the sales are under plan for the reasons we have been discussing.
I have a whole lot of data for other brands and i will try to post the relevant ones. For starters, the LS460 and Infiniti M sales were up 78% and 21% respectively in 2007.
January 2008 Sales
http://www.hondabeat.com/sales_stats.php
WY 2007 Sales
Acura Total Car Sales 98,142 137,938 -29.1%
RL 6,262 11,501 -45.7%
TL * 58,545 71,348 -18.2%
TSX 33,037 38,035 -13.4%
The above info is publicly available or look up honda's website. I confirmed the numbers from industry investment research reports available to me at work. The numbers prove just what i thought....the sales are under plan for the reasons we have been discussing.
I have a whole lot of data for other brands and i will try to post the relevant ones. For starters, the LS460 and Infiniti M sales were up 78% and 21% respectively in 2007.
Last edited by szuberi; 02-Mar-2008 at 08:58 PM.
