Horsepower VS Torque
02-Sep-2003, 11:18 PM
#41
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Originally posted by CRXlover
DUDE for the SECOND TIME WHAT U ARE STATING IS A "GIVEN" and has nothing to do with the argument
DUDE for the SECOND TIME WHAT U ARE STATING IS A "GIVEN" and has nothing to do with the argument
02-Sep-2003, 11:23 PM
#42
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Location: Woodbridge
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Originally posted by jason_alt
no eh? lol.
reread everyone's posts..... then read them again..... you'll get it soon enough.
no eh? lol.
reread everyone's posts..... then read them again..... you'll get it soon enough.
gatherer this is not a reliability discussion, since when was the argument about hondas which make peak power over a very short rpm? bottom line is
horsepower > torque read the link i posted above
02-Sep-2003, 11:39 PM
#43
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I read it ... and I think you should vist www.theoldone.com and have a good read at his opinions of the horsepower vs. torque argument....
and I wasn't (if you re read my post) making the arguement for RPM and reliability.... most of it was on torque and where it is in the power band and why you get high horsepower numbers with high rpm torque increases.... for example .... if you increase torque at say 2000 rpm by 10 ft/lbs you would see an increase in horsepower of 3.8 hp.... however if you increase torque at say 10504 rpm (if you have an egine that revs to 11 grand say) by 5 ft/lbs you would see a horsepower gain at that rpm of 10 hp...
now seriously which gain is better?
personally I believe that the lowerr is a better increase because at 10504 rpm if you have an engine that red lines at 11000 you will be thinking of shifting and only use that high rpm horsepower increase you made for a split second....then the engine red lines and no more increase
however with the low end gain you use that torque to it';s full potentail building momentum to take the rpm speed to the red line ... low end torque is what is what wins races the ability to shift gears and by doing so pull the engine speed down to a point where it's in the thick of the torque curve...
instead of shifting at the red line and pulling the engine speed down to a point outside the torque curve and having to work to get it back up to "useable high rpm torque"
if horsepower is greater then torque it would have a simple and easy to understand definition like torque
torque is the force applied to a rotate a mass in a circle ... now thats easy to understand and follow
and I wasn't (if you re read my post) making the arguement for RPM and reliability.... most of it was on torque and where it is in the power band and why you get high horsepower numbers with high rpm torque increases.... for example .... if you increase torque at say 2000 rpm by 10 ft/lbs you would see an increase in horsepower of 3.8 hp.... however if you increase torque at say 10504 rpm (if you have an egine that revs to 11 grand say) by 5 ft/lbs you would see a horsepower gain at that rpm of 10 hp...
now seriously which gain is better?
personally I believe that the lowerr is a better increase because at 10504 rpm if you have an engine that red lines at 11000 you will be thinking of shifting and only use that high rpm horsepower increase you made for a split second....then the engine red lines and no more increase
however with the low end gain you use that torque to it';s full potentail building momentum to take the rpm speed to the red line ... low end torque is what is what wins races the ability to shift gears and by doing so pull the engine speed down to a point where it's in the thick of the torque curve...
instead of shifting at the red line and pulling the engine speed down to a point outside the torque curve and having to work to get it back up to "useable high rpm torque"
if horsepower is greater then torque it would have a simple and easy to understand definition like torque
torque is the force applied to a rotate a mass in a circle ... now thats easy to understand and follow
02-Sep-2003, 11:52 PM
#44
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Location: Montreal
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Originally posted by CRXlover
they have identical torque but the second car is going to be faster because it MORE HORSEPOWER
they have identical torque but the second car is going to be faster because it MORE HORSEPOWER
second the topic/argument is hp vs torque right? ok ....now my statement clearly said that a mustang with more torque will win over a mustang with less torque and a few more hp makeing it the stronger quicker car therefore making torque the greater advantage over hp...now how was this having nothing to do with the topic/argument?? It has everything to do with it...
Gather and a few others took the liberty of doing the math, so why repeat it?? Im makeing some real life comparasions to help you understand since the math doesnt equate for you..... Hp vs torque ...my statement torque is more important, cuz its what won the race...
03-Sep-2003, 12:12 AM
#45
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Location: in the MOSH pit
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I say Horse Power AND Torque!
Both are important!
regardless of that i think, this is a very good read
http://www.allpar.com/eek/hp-vs-torque.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Torque and power are (almost) flip sides of the same coin. Increasing the torque of an engine at a particular RPM is the same as increasing the power output at the same RPM.
Power is just as useful and relevant in determining vehicle performance as is torque. In some situations it's more useful, because you may not have to play with gear ratios and a calculator to understand what's going on.
A car accelerates hardest with gearing selected to stay as close as possible to the engine *power* peak, subject to the traction capability of the tires.
Not all cars should be shifted at the redline for maximum performance. But it's true for many cars. You can determine optimal shift points by graphing horsepower vs. velocity or transmission torque vs. RPM. Engine torque alone will not determine shift points.
Both are important!
regardless of that i think, this is a very good read
http://www.allpar.com/eek/hp-vs-torque.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Torque and power are (almost) flip sides of the same coin. Increasing the torque of an engine at a particular RPM is the same as increasing the power output at the same RPM.
Power is just as useful and relevant in determining vehicle performance as is torque. In some situations it's more useful, because you may not have to play with gear ratios and a calculator to understand what's going on.
A car accelerates hardest with gearing selected to stay as close as possible to the engine *power* peak, subject to the traction capability of the tires.
Not all cars should be shifted at the redline for maximum performance. But it's true for many cars. You can determine optimal shift points by graphing horsepower vs. velocity or transmission torque vs. RPM. Engine torque alone will not determine shift points.
03-Sep-2003, 12:16 AM
#46
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,508
Ok well this should put an end to this argument compleately...Maybe this will help you understand a few things with out allot of technical mumble jumble...
Torque is the only thing driving the car forward, and HP is a measurement of how fast the engine is moving when it produces the torque.
Torque is force... Force = Mass * Acceleration. F=MA
A Semi produces 700 pounds of torque at like 2000 rpms and has only a couple hundred HP.
A motorcycle produces ~100 pounds torque at 7000 rpms and produces the same HP.
So is the truck accelerating faster? It WOULD be if the M wasn't so disproportionally big on the truck, thus lowering the A by a lot.
If they weighed the same somehow, and the truck could shift instantly through enough gears to keep the tach at about 2000 rpms, then it would slaughter the motorcycle even with the same horsepower.
Weight aside, torque produces the exact same acceleration at any speed. Car A produces 100 pounds @ 2000 rpms and accelerates through those rpms exactly as fast as Car B with 100 pounds @ 4000 rpms does through its peak torque rpms. Same torque, same acceleration - Car B, though, has TWICE the HP.
So more horsepower indicates torque at higher speeds. Typically this means higher HP cars have higher top speeds, but we're talking about engine speed, not wheel speed. With one-speed transmissions, it would be more obvious what each measurement means.
Theoretical Race:
Car1 Car2 (Each car has a one-speed trans)
------------- -------------
torque (lbs/rpms) 200/2000 100/8000
redline (rpms) 10,000 10,000
gearing(mph/1000rpms) 10/1000 10/1000 (this means 100 mph redline limited top speed)
hp very low very high
weight x x
In this race, Car1 would slaughter Car 2 off the line up to 40 or 50 mph when the torque curb on Car1 is really plummeting and on Car2 is really climbing. At 40 or 50 mph, Car2 begins out-accelerating Car1 very drastically. In fact, it reaches 60 mph first, even though Car1 is still in front (an argument for 0-60 times not being as important is time/distance measurements). Car2 will eventually take the lead and easily reach 100 mph at its redline. Car1 will accelerate very slowly through the high mph's, and may not even have enough torque left (enough hp left) to reach 100 mph at all. On the other hand, it is not uncommon for a small car to have enough HP to hold a high speed like 150 mph, but not have enough torque to get to that speed in the first place. Cars like the RSX compensate for this with 6 speed transmissions to keep the rpms in the high HP zones. Getting to the HP zone in a hurry is important for cars like this, so they have short first gears. In this race, Car1 may lose in some perspecives, but it accelerated twice as hard as Car2 ever did, and the driver felt it.
There is lots more to consider in real life though, like weight and gearing. On a race track, HP is better cause you have torque at higher speeds and you can accelerate better at these fluctuating high speeds. On a dragstrip, torque means more cause it gets you going. So, in real life, when dominance is determined in 0~40 mph stoplight races, torque dominates. The perfect engine would produce constant high torque from 1 rpm to the redline - this way acceleration would always be that huge except when shifting gears. HP would mean nothing.
Reference>>> http://www.automotiveforums.com/t109796.html
I thought id post it to save allot of typeing, and I doubt anyone can explain it any better...
Bottem line is torque beats hp when drag raceing (at a dragtrack) So Im going for a B20 cuz torque ownz...throw a vtec head on to gain more hp and the top end will be also good on the higway, makeing it not only a 1/4 mile / red light/ holeshot car....
Torque is the only thing driving the car forward, and HP is a measurement of how fast the engine is moving when it produces the torque.
Torque is force... Force = Mass * Acceleration. F=MA
A Semi produces 700 pounds of torque at like 2000 rpms and has only a couple hundred HP.
A motorcycle produces ~100 pounds torque at 7000 rpms and produces the same HP.
So is the truck accelerating faster? It WOULD be if the M wasn't so disproportionally big on the truck, thus lowering the A by a lot.
If they weighed the same somehow, and the truck could shift instantly through enough gears to keep the tach at about 2000 rpms, then it would slaughter the motorcycle even with the same horsepower.
Weight aside, torque produces the exact same acceleration at any speed. Car A produces 100 pounds @ 2000 rpms and accelerates through those rpms exactly as fast as Car B with 100 pounds @ 4000 rpms does through its peak torque rpms. Same torque, same acceleration - Car B, though, has TWICE the HP.
So more horsepower indicates torque at higher speeds. Typically this means higher HP cars have higher top speeds, but we're talking about engine speed, not wheel speed. With one-speed transmissions, it would be more obvious what each measurement means.
Theoretical Race:
Car1 Car2 (Each car has a one-speed trans)
------------- -------------
torque (lbs/rpms) 200/2000 100/8000
redline (rpms) 10,000 10,000
gearing(mph/1000rpms) 10/1000 10/1000 (this means 100 mph redline limited top speed)
hp very low very high
weight x x
In this race, Car1 would slaughter Car 2 off the line up to 40 or 50 mph when the torque curb on Car1 is really plummeting and on Car2 is really climbing. At 40 or 50 mph, Car2 begins out-accelerating Car1 very drastically. In fact, it reaches 60 mph first, even though Car1 is still in front (an argument for 0-60 times not being as important is time/distance measurements). Car2 will eventually take the lead and easily reach 100 mph at its redline. Car1 will accelerate very slowly through the high mph's, and may not even have enough torque left (enough hp left) to reach 100 mph at all. On the other hand, it is not uncommon for a small car to have enough HP to hold a high speed like 150 mph, but not have enough torque to get to that speed in the first place. Cars like the RSX compensate for this with 6 speed transmissions to keep the rpms in the high HP zones. Getting to the HP zone in a hurry is important for cars like this, so they have short first gears. In this race, Car1 may lose in some perspecives, but it accelerated twice as hard as Car2 ever did, and the driver felt it.
There is lots more to consider in real life though, like weight and gearing. On a race track, HP is better cause you have torque at higher speeds and you can accelerate better at these fluctuating high speeds. On a dragstrip, torque means more cause it gets you going. So, in real life, when dominance is determined in 0~40 mph stoplight races, torque dominates. The perfect engine would produce constant high torque from 1 rpm to the redline - this way acceleration would always be that huge except when shifting gears. HP would mean nothing.
Reference>>> http://www.automotiveforums.com/t109796.html
I thought id post it to save allot of typeing, and I doubt anyone can explain it any better...
Bottem line is torque beats hp when drag raceing (at a dragtrack) So Im going for a B20 cuz torque ownz...throw a vtec head on to gain more hp and the top end will be also good on the higway, makeing it not only a 1/4 mile / red light/ holeshot car....
03-Sep-2003, 12:19 AM
#47
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,508
Originally posted by JookSingKid
I say Horse Power AND Torque!
Both are important!
regardless of that i think, this is a very good read
http://www.allpar.com/eek/hp-vs-torque.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Torque and power are (almost) flip sides of the same coin. Increasing the torque of an engine at a particular RPM is the same as increasing the power output at the same RPM.
Power is just as useful and relevant in determining vehicle performance as is torque. In some situations it's more useful, because you may not have to play with gear ratios and a calculator to understand what's going on.
A car accelerates hardest with gearing selected to stay as close as possible to the engine *power* peak, subject to the traction capability of the tires.
Not all cars should be shifted at the redline for maximum performance. But it's true for many cars. You can determine optimal shift points by graphing horsepower vs. velocity or transmission torque vs. RPM. Engine torque alone will not determine shift points.
I say Horse Power AND Torque!
Both are important!
regardless of that i think, this is a very good read
http://www.allpar.com/eek/hp-vs-torque.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Torque and power are (almost) flip sides of the same coin. Increasing the torque of an engine at a particular RPM is the same as increasing the power output at the same RPM.
Power is just as useful and relevant in determining vehicle performance as is torque. In some situations it's more useful, because you may not have to play with gear ratios and a calculator to understand what's going on.
A car accelerates hardest with gearing selected to stay as close as possible to the engine *power* peak, subject to the traction capability of the tires.
Not all cars should be shifted at the redline for maximum performance. But it's true for many cars. You can determine optimal shift points by graphing horsepower vs. velocity or transmission torque vs. RPM. Engine torque alone will not determine shift points.
I read that also, very good read indeed
Hp is important, lets not neglect it, but IMO Id rather have a torquey car
03-Sep-2003, 01:18 AM
#48
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: on a race track
Posts: 17,846
well JSK you have a point there.. but I'd rather have torque and just figure out transmission torque and Rpm and shift points ...
see thats easy to do knowing the drive ratios and tire size and diameter of the tire speeds are easy to calculate ...hell if perfect shifts are assumed taking 0 seconds to perform quarter mile times could be mapped out and used as the best possible time...science doesn't lie....
see thats easy to do knowing the drive ratios and tire size and diameter of the tire speeds are easy to calculate ...hell if perfect shifts are assumed taking 0 seconds to perform quarter mile times could be mapped out and used as the best possible time...science doesn't lie....
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