WARNING: Rollcages and Street Cars don't mix.
13-Dec-2004, 11:52 AM
#1
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WARNING: Rollcages and Street Cars don't mix.
I've seen too many posts. I've recieved too many PMs.
I want to set somethings straight. Roll cages and street cars don't mix. here's why. in a street cage you will not where a helmet. hell your not suppose to. with this said if you are in a collision you will bounce your head off the bars. you could put the best padding in the world on those bars but in the end you will still bounce your head off the bars and you will still be dazed and confused or dead. after wards garentee you will be bloodly. see the padding on roll cages is to be used in conjuction with a SA approved Snell helmet. this will help protect your head in a racing incident but in the end one crash and the helmet is garbage so if the helmet ends it's life after one crash why would you want to put your head through that without a helmet on.
There are so many things that could go wrong I highly recommend that you don't put a cage in your car. I also highly recommend staying away from 4 or 5 point harnesses even if you have a roll cage and the harness is installed properly. if you just have a roll bar and the harness installed in the even of a roll over you can have the A piller collaspe without any extra support there. there have been incidents at race tracks of this happening in those cases had the driver been wearing a 4 or 5 point harness it would have kept them in place. They were whereing the stock seat belts. had they been kept in place by a 4 or 5 point harness they would have been killed when the a pillers collasped. the 3 point stock harness alloed more movement which resulted in their body being moved out of the way with the collasping A piller.
now I know I'm going to be called a hypocrite for posting this. I own a car with a 4 point harness and a roll bar. exactly the stuff I'm telling you not to do. However in my case that car is not street driven unless going to or from a autoslalom now. I know this wasn't always the case but I knew these risks before installing anything in my car. if your car is street driven and only does occasional lapping days/solo1/solo2 then there is really no need for a cage. if I had a chance to do it all over again the cage wouldn't have gone in.
(Bruno do you feel the need to sticky this?)
I want to set somethings straight. Roll cages and street cars don't mix. here's why. in a street cage you will not where a helmet. hell your not suppose to. with this said if you are in a collision you will bounce your head off the bars. you could put the best padding in the world on those bars but in the end you will still bounce your head off the bars and you will still be dazed and confused or dead. after wards garentee you will be bloodly. see the padding on roll cages is to be used in conjuction with a SA approved Snell helmet. this will help protect your head in a racing incident but in the end one crash and the helmet is garbage so if the helmet ends it's life after one crash why would you want to put your head through that without a helmet on.
There are so many things that could go wrong I highly recommend that you don't put a cage in your car. I also highly recommend staying away from 4 or 5 point harnesses even if you have a roll cage and the harness is installed properly. if you just have a roll bar and the harness installed in the even of a roll over you can have the A piller collaspe without any extra support there. there have been incidents at race tracks of this happening in those cases had the driver been wearing a 4 or 5 point harness it would have kept them in place. They were whereing the stock seat belts. had they been kept in place by a 4 or 5 point harness they would have been killed when the a pillers collasped. the 3 point stock harness alloed more movement which resulted in their body being moved out of the way with the collasping A piller.
now I know I'm going to be called a hypocrite for posting this. I own a car with a 4 point harness and a roll bar. exactly the stuff I'm telling you not to do. However in my case that car is not street driven unless going to or from a autoslalom now. I know this wasn't always the case but I knew these risks before installing anything in my car. if your car is street driven and only does occasional lapping days/solo1/solo2 then there is really no need for a cage. if I had a chance to do it all over again the cage wouldn't have gone in.
(Bruno do you feel the need to sticky this?)
17-Dec-2004, 09:12 AM
#5
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ontario
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The only bar that I think will hit on your head directly will be the horizontal bar between A & B pillars.
First thing first, we need to lower our sitting position. Take me for example, 6' with tall upper body. In stock seat, when I tilt my head to the left, I could touch the metal parts, a little. During a roll over, god knows where I will end up in the car but it ain't gonna be a pretty picture. Now, with a lowered sitting position, my head touches nothing in any direction. And I have a good 4" gap between the tip of body frame (the frame next to the door) and I am gonna have to try really hard to make my head touch the driver side window.
If that horizontal bar is tucked in and runs along the body frame, while you are sitting lower and fastened by harness, I doubt your head will hit anything. With a helmet, maybe because it is bigger.
But not everyone is 6'. Shorter folks will obviously have more headroom.
Roll cage is like any other aftermarket mods - do it only when your car and your driving style needs it. Do it for coolness might not be smart enough for such thing.
First thing first, we need to lower our sitting position. Take me for example, 6' with tall upper body. In stock seat, when I tilt my head to the left, I could touch the metal parts, a little. During a roll over, god knows where I will end up in the car but it ain't gonna be a pretty picture. Now, with a lowered sitting position, my head touches nothing in any direction. And I have a good 4" gap between the tip of body frame (the frame next to the door) and I am gonna have to try really hard to make my head touch the driver side window.
If that horizontal bar is tucked in and runs along the body frame, while you are sitting lower and fastened by harness, I doubt your head will hit anything. With a helmet, maybe because it is bigger.
But not everyone is 6'. Shorter folks will obviously have more headroom.
Roll cage is like any other aftermarket mods - do it only when your car and your driving style needs it. Do it for coolness might not be smart enough for such thing.
19-Dec-2004, 04:12 PM
#6
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: miss.on.ca
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heh well i'm building a honda CRX for rally racing purposes, and i will weekend drive it becseu it will be all street legit... and maybe to work but like the person above me said, both driver and co driver seats are lowered, while the codriver is pushed ALL the way back...
22-Dec-2004, 02:53 PM
#7
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Originally posted by Nova_Dust
The only bar that I think will hit on your head directly will be the horizontal bar between A & B pillars.
First thing first, we need to lower our sitting position. Take me for example, 6' with tall upper body. In stock seat, when I tilt my head to the left, I could touch the metal parts, a little. During a roll over, god knows where I will end up in the car but it ain't gonna be a pretty picture. Now, with a lowered sitting position, my head touches nothing in any direction. And I have a good 4" gap between the tip of body frame (the frame next to the door) and I am gonna have to try really hard to make my head touch the driver side window.
The only bar that I think will hit on your head directly will be the horizontal bar between A & B pillars.
First thing first, we need to lower our sitting position. Take me for example, 6' with tall upper body. In stock seat, when I tilt my head to the left, I could touch the metal parts, a little. During a roll over, god knows where I will end up in the car but it ain't gonna be a pretty picture. Now, with a lowered sitting position, my head touches nothing in any direction. And I have a good 4" gap between the tip of body frame (the frame next to the door) and I am gonna have to try really hard to make my head touch the driver side window.
Originally posted by Nova_Dust
Roll cage is like any other aftermarket mods - do it only when your car and your driving style needs it. Do it for coolness might not be smart enough for such thing.
Roll cage is like any other aftermarket mods - do it only when your car and your driving style needs it. Do it for coolness might not be smart enough for such thing.
23-Dec-2004, 10:09 AM
#8
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 96
Man, grammer check before making an important post.
I want to set something straight. Roll cages and street cars don't mix. here's why. in a street cage you will not wear a helmet. hell you're not supposed to. with this said if you are in a collision you will bounce your head off the bars. you could put the best padding in the world on those bars but in the end you will still bounce your head off the bars and you will still be dazed and confused or dead. afterwards I guarantee you will be bloodly. see the padding on roll cages is to be used in conjuction with a SA approved Snell helmet. this will help protect your head in a racing incident but in the end one crash and the helmet is garbage so if the helmet ends it's life after one crash why would you want to put your head through that without a helmet on.
I want to set something straight. Roll cages and street cars don't mix. here's why. in a street cage you will not wear a helmet. hell you're not supposed to. with this said if you are in a collision you will bounce your head off the bars. you could put the best padding in the world on those bars but in the end you will still bounce your head off the bars and you will still be dazed and confused or dead. afterwards I guarantee you will be bloodly. see the padding on roll cages is to be used in conjuction with a SA approved Snell helmet. this will help protect your head in a racing incident but in the end one crash and the helmet is garbage so if the helmet ends it's life after one crash why would you want to put your head through that without a helmet on.
02-Jan-2005, 04:56 PM
#10
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Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cayman Islands
Posts: 1,172
Originally posted by PunkInDrublic
man finding something better to do then correct grammar and making threads about necro
man finding something better to do then correct grammar and making threads about necro
I don't think as a moderator you should make comments like that. You should just maybe moderate - send him a PM and tell him "This is the reason why I deleted your post....".
It sounds like you have a huge issue with his necro thread more than him correcting grammar. I've seen people post worse stuff than that and no one says anything.
You have the power to delete anything he posts if it bothers you that much.
BTW: Happy New Year. Could a moderator pls eventually delete this post and the 2 above so that this thread isn't ruined. Thanks! Back to the topic.
04-Jan-2005, 06:09 PM
#12
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Location: Midland, Ontario
Posts: 300
Funny I would have assumed a 4-5 point harness would be better. But then again maybe not, there are too many pros and cons for each to actually say if one is better then the other. It all depends on the crash. Second, unless you’re like over 6 foot tall and your head is hitting the roof of your car then you’re NOT going to hit the roll cage. I've sat in lots of cars with roll cages and my head wasn't even close to being any where near them nor would I be able to hit my head on one during a crash. As for a roll cage collapsing, the whole idea behind it is that it doesn't collapse, if done right it won't. Unless of course a big rig or garbage truck. That was not pretty. Not sure where you’re getting your theories from, might want to double check. The seat belt is designed to restrict the motion of the driver. Granted they do not do that enough, that’s where the 4 or 5 point harness comes in. It will totally restrict the motion enough that you don’t slam into one. However this will still leave the head, legs and arms to move free with more force due to the body being totally restricted. But that is where the pro’s and cons come into play. Modern races cars use the Hans Device which will totally restrict the movement of the head during a crash. But for this you need a helmet right. I don’t know personal preference I guess. My opinion is 4 or 5 points harness are good, roll cage is even better when it comes to a crash.
05-Jan-2005, 08:14 AM
#13
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personal opinion and facts shouldn't be mixed.
yeah I've sat in alot of cars too where if done up in the harness my head wouldn't touch the rollcage anyways... however they all seem to still have the padding... and your right a roll cage is not suppose to collaspe given that the forces it was designed to meet arn't exceeded. the issue comes that slight collasping of the cage starts to occur when those forces are exceeded. I've seen this.
Also yes a 4 or 5 point harness will hold you in place better but thats the point. by begin held in place better in a car without a cage if the A piller collaspes in a crash you won't be moved out of the way. I've heard of crashes where people were in stock seat belts the A piller collasped and they were moved by the forces so that there head was out of the way. with a 4 or 5 point harness your not going to be moved out of the way and that piller is coming right down on your head when it collaspes. (again talking about cars without cages)
anyways I think since no one really wants to listen I'll just withhold the info I have on who to talk to to get a cage built. basically if I don't think the cage is going into a car that will see track use (drag/autocross/track whatever) I won't pass out the guy's number.
yeah I've sat in alot of cars too where if done up in the harness my head wouldn't touch the rollcage anyways... however they all seem to still have the padding... and your right a roll cage is not suppose to collaspe given that the forces it was designed to meet arn't exceeded. the issue comes that slight collasping of the cage starts to occur when those forces are exceeded. I've seen this.
Also yes a 4 or 5 point harness will hold you in place better but thats the point. by begin held in place better in a car without a cage if the A piller collaspes in a crash you won't be moved out of the way. I've heard of crashes where people were in stock seat belts the A piller collasped and they were moved by the forces so that there head was out of the way. with a 4 or 5 point harness your not going to be moved out of the way and that piller is coming right down on your head when it collaspes. (again talking about cars without cages)
anyways I think since no one really wants to listen I'll just withhold the info I have on who to talk to to get a cage built. basically if I don't think the cage is going into a car that will see track use (drag/autocross/track whatever) I won't pass out the guy's number.
05-Jan-2005, 09:56 AM
#14
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ontario
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I guess we all forget that the stock seatbelt gets locked up during initial impact, IF, the driver is being forced in a forward motion. And the seatbelt won't release until that motion is stopped.
Last time I got rear ended by a 18 wheeler with as little speed as 5 km on the highway, the seatbelt locked up and the only thing that moved on my body was my neck, tilting forward, then tilted back and bounced off of my seat.
The driver will only get to move around inside the car when the car comes to a stop, and given that the driver is still conscience. The key word is conscience. When you are knocked out, it doesn't matter if you are held down by 5 pt harness or just a rope, you ain't gonna wake up.
So, the car is in an accident, and the roof is collapsing, seatbelt locked, driver can't move forward and upward - because a portion of the belt is on your chest, and the other half is on your laps.
Case study 1 - car upside down. A & B pillars will crash, and the driver will move away from his seats but it all depends on how fast the crash is. If the crash occurs during a 100km crash, I don't think the body can move before the roof gets crashed. Where as, if you were sitting in the car, with seatbelt on and 10 people push your car until it tilts over on its roof, by the time the roof is on the ground, you will be out of your seats. In another words, you will only be safer, or even safed during a low speed collusion.
Case study 2 - car on 4 wheels, heavy object dropped from air. Say the 18 wheeler next to you decided to do a flip this time, and you happen to be next to it when the trailer lands on your car. What's gonna happen? I do think the A & B pillar will try their best to do their job - hold the car in shape. But what if the forces are too strong and everything happens so fast in a blink of an eye? Roof comes down along with the heavy object and what is the second highest object inside the car besides your roof? For most people driving with most stock cars on the market, their head. But is the driver going to be able to move away from it?
Not unless your car is stationary and the seatbelt isn't locked up. You see it coming and you are either fast enough to open the door and get out first (don't forget, people panic and the first thing they do is hold up their hands and see if the hands can save them, while they scream their lungs out); or you are caged inside. In the latter event, the roof comes down. You see it coming and you need to react fast. Ever tried to move really fast in your seat with seatbelt on? What happens? You guessed it, the seatbelt locks up. You can pull it fast enough in 1/2 a second and it will lock up. Even the slighest forward motion, giving fast enough speed, it locks up. So, say you want to dodge to the centre, which is, your forward right hand corner. Will your seatbelt lock up? This is an easy exercise you all can do in your cars.
Having said all that, factory cars are built to withstand crashes, only under certain speed and forces. We all know that. When the forces are greater, extra reinforcements will give the extra protection, but, with a limit as well. That's design and engineering. Your head, will be injured in two ways - either your body moves in a greater motion to allow your head to travel thus far to reach its nearest object (metal), or, the metal comes to your head (and any other body parts). The second event, there isn't really nothing you could do. But the first, given the car is rigid enough to withstand the forces, you will be in your car seat, and the roof will still remain its form, or somewhat.
Roll cage is designed when the car is rolled over, the outside forces can't harm the driver. It is a smaller cage inside a bigger one - the car. But because the extra metal cage, your interior car room is downsized, you need to stay in your seat at all time. The harness prevents you from touching the cage plus the car parts, and the cage and car prevents outside object to come inside and harm you. But with a cage, that doesn't mean your head have to bounce and touch the A-B pillar horizontal bar. In fact, non of your body part should touch the cage under any circumstances because your whole body is inside the bucket seat. And your head shouldn't touch the cage because your bucket seat is being position lowered to allow helmet room and extra head room.
If your body parts can touch the cage by a simple left and right movement, then either the seat isn't approved, or the cage is built wrong. Wrose case scenario, you are just too damn tall and you should be playing basketball rather than doing circuit racing. Everything and anything will safe your live during a collusion as long as the car can withstand the forces. Anything exceeding that standard, you can only hope and pray.
But to avoid all accidents in the first place and not get yourself killed, driving skill is the only thing that will safe your ***.
Last time I got rear ended by a 18 wheeler with as little speed as 5 km on the highway, the seatbelt locked up and the only thing that moved on my body was my neck, tilting forward, then tilted back and bounced off of my seat.
The driver will only get to move around inside the car when the car comes to a stop, and given that the driver is still conscience. The key word is conscience. When you are knocked out, it doesn't matter if you are held down by 5 pt harness or just a rope, you ain't gonna wake up.
So, the car is in an accident, and the roof is collapsing, seatbelt locked, driver can't move forward and upward - because a portion of the belt is on your chest, and the other half is on your laps.
Case study 1 - car upside down. A & B pillars will crash, and the driver will move away from his seats but it all depends on how fast the crash is. If the crash occurs during a 100km crash, I don't think the body can move before the roof gets crashed. Where as, if you were sitting in the car, with seatbelt on and 10 people push your car until it tilts over on its roof, by the time the roof is on the ground, you will be out of your seats. In another words, you will only be safer, or even safed during a low speed collusion.
Case study 2 - car on 4 wheels, heavy object dropped from air. Say the 18 wheeler next to you decided to do a flip this time, and you happen to be next to it when the trailer lands on your car. What's gonna happen? I do think the A & B pillar will try their best to do their job - hold the car in shape. But what if the forces are too strong and everything happens so fast in a blink of an eye? Roof comes down along with the heavy object and what is the second highest object inside the car besides your roof? For most people driving with most stock cars on the market, their head. But is the driver going to be able to move away from it?
Not unless your car is stationary and the seatbelt isn't locked up. You see it coming and you are either fast enough to open the door and get out first (don't forget, people panic and the first thing they do is hold up their hands and see if the hands can save them, while they scream their lungs out); or you are caged inside. In the latter event, the roof comes down. You see it coming and you need to react fast. Ever tried to move really fast in your seat with seatbelt on? What happens? You guessed it, the seatbelt locks up. You can pull it fast enough in 1/2 a second and it will lock up. Even the slighest forward motion, giving fast enough speed, it locks up. So, say you want to dodge to the centre, which is, your forward right hand corner. Will your seatbelt lock up? This is an easy exercise you all can do in your cars.
Having said all that, factory cars are built to withstand crashes, only under certain speed and forces. We all know that. When the forces are greater, extra reinforcements will give the extra protection, but, with a limit as well. That's design and engineering. Your head, will be injured in two ways - either your body moves in a greater motion to allow your head to travel thus far to reach its nearest object (metal), or, the metal comes to your head (and any other body parts). The second event, there isn't really nothing you could do. But the first, given the car is rigid enough to withstand the forces, you will be in your car seat, and the roof will still remain its form, or somewhat.
Roll cage is designed when the car is rolled over, the outside forces can't harm the driver. It is a smaller cage inside a bigger one - the car. But because the extra metal cage, your interior car room is downsized, you need to stay in your seat at all time. The harness prevents you from touching the cage plus the car parts, and the cage and car prevents outside object to come inside and harm you. But with a cage, that doesn't mean your head have to bounce and touch the A-B pillar horizontal bar. In fact, non of your body part should touch the cage under any circumstances because your whole body is inside the bucket seat. And your head shouldn't touch the cage because your bucket seat is being position lowered to allow helmet room and extra head room.
If your body parts can touch the cage by a simple left and right movement, then either the seat isn't approved, or the cage is built wrong. Wrose case scenario, you are just too damn tall and you should be playing basketball rather than doing circuit racing. Everything and anything will safe your live during a collusion as long as the car can withstand the forces. Anything exceeding that standard, you can only hope and pray.
But to avoid all accidents in the first place and not get yourself killed, driving skill is the only thing that will safe your ***.
08-Jan-2005, 11:24 PM
#16
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: brampton
Posts: 434
if your hed can hit the cage cant it hit the stock pillars? theres metal behind all those plastics and covers.... it all depends on the design and the car and the person do wut u want with your cars in the end i think i would rather be safe then sorry....
on the other hand stock cars have to meet crazy regulations so wuts the point in adding a cage? maybe u like the look, maybe u want to be safe, maybe u want to race, maybe u like "building your car, i have alto of mods on my car and a motor swap but i have never raced it... on street or on track.. i just build it the way I like oh well too each their own...
btw where did u get your cage done? lol
on the other hand stock cars have to meet crazy regulations so wuts the point in adding a cage? maybe u like the look, maybe u want to be safe, maybe u want to race, maybe u like "building your car, i have alto of mods on my car and a motor swap but i have never raced it... on street or on track.. i just build it the way I like oh well too each their own...
btw where did u get your cage done? lol
09-Jan-2005, 08:03 PM
#18
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Midland, Ontario
Posts: 300
Well I think if the trailer tipped over on you you might be ok assuming their is no load in it.. Their just sheets of aluminum on a few posts.. Now a garbage truck.. Boy they do a number on you. But you could be right about the roll cage. I was assuming you were talking about a roll over. But in the event of a side impact, the roll cage really isn't their inless you do full side support also.. But have fun getting in and out of your car then right. But I guess it would be possiable to break the cage from a side impact. If you were to break it and have the A pillar support move over you could do a number on your face.. Bah.. I dunno.. To many facts.. To many opinions.. To many ways of looking at it.. To much to factor in.. As for seat belts I would still say 4/5 would be better granded your wearing the Hans device.. 3 points are just stupid but hey that's all they put in a stock car so I guess you have to live with it..
