bbor-imported

ok, take a look at your front suspension.
its attached to a control arm, right?
that control arm generally is angled down towards the ground when the car is at rest.
when you apply force and compression to the suspension, the control arm deflects upwards.
when you lower a car, you begin premature control arm deflection. (IE when the car is at rest, the control arm is already deflecting upwards more than stock)
as soon as the control arm passes parallel to the ground... the car will begin to handle worse because you have reduced suspension travel AND control arm travel.
here is an example of a slammed car:

this car is at rest. notice the control arm is pointing UP. Also notice the steering arm is pointing up as well.
basically the lower a car is, the less suspension travel the car has. Thats not good. plus, when you have a really slammed car, you are already compressing the shock. Almost no struts are designed to be slammed... this causes the strut to wear out prematurely.

so, you ask, why do race cars handle so well if they are slammed?
simple... their suspension is redesigned to be low. Normally they relocate the control arm higher on the chassis or use a drop spindle (basically it relocates the wheel higher on the control arm so that it lowers the car by raising the wheel higher into the wheelwell, not actually lowering the suspension)


This is a drop spindle for an Volkswagen A4 Chassis (Current Golf/Jetta)
It attaches to the control arm and relocates the hubs HIGHER into the chassis, but the control arm remains at the same location.
Of course real race cars have all custom suspension that is made to be that low without compromising suspension travel.

So you need to ask yourself this question?
Do I want to handle good or look good.
Sure, a slammed car may look the ****... but it handles like ***.

You should know that simply lowering a car does not make it handle better (see 'Cut Springs')
You have to match slight lowering, correct spring rates, proper dampning and good suspension geometry to have a good handling car (and thats not even taking into account anti-sway bars)
The best handling FR cars generally have a reverse rake stance (the front has more wheel gap then the rear). Mainly because the front of the car supports the engine, and under braking will dive more as you will always produce more Gs braking than accelerating (IE a car will almost always stop faster than it will accelerate)

So what should you be looking for in a good handling car?
As much suspension travel as possible
moderate lowering
control arms that point DOWN at rest (get under those cars and see how your control arms are positioned)
dont overspring a car
dont overdampen a car (the car needs some give)
corner balance your chassis (not just 50/50 Front Rear distribution of weight, but Left and right balance as well)
stiffen suspension flex points (the strut towers will deflect under most cornering conditions. get that Sparco bar on!)
Reduce body roll to maximize handling
loose is fast, increase rear lateral rotational speeds with larger anti-sway bars, but be prepared to compensate for the looseness and tail happy nature with good driver skills

Coilovers are not always the answer, dont get tricked into buying suspension components you dont need!
Our seperate strut and outboard spring rear suspension is actually a WONDERFUL thing... Once you learn how to master it.

imported_S@URN

interesting
thanks for the info.

DaRizzla

wow interesting .... i actually read that whole thing .. thnx for passing on the knowledge bro

imported_gatherer

ok I'm lazy I read the first part.... discovered it was something I knew already (but is good information)

so PM me if you can get spindles for the civic... since that is how I want to drop my car. thanks.

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

gatherer... suspension techniques used to make civic drop spindles... dunno if they still do.

ROBM3, where did you steal that information from?

imported_gatherer

thanks Bruno I will search the web now that I have a company name

imported_chillinit

wicked info...thx!

imported_gatherer

ok I looked up the suspension techniques website.... nothing there.... only email address I found was for the web design peopole that created that site.... ohhh well I've got somone I have to bug about this ....yes yes Buddah might beable to help me look for this

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

this Civic is 6+ years old now and was the 1st civic on 18 inch rims (TSW Trophey) and it features a 5" drop!!! It uses ST Pro-Arms and Drop Forks... if you call ST directly, or find an authorized dealer with the catalogue, you will have sucess in your search!

imported_gatherer

ahhh ok thanks BBarbulo....

shlammed

hmmm...my car is dropped on eibach sportlines so about 1.7" tops and until my upper balljoint problems became evident, it felt like it hooked really nicely...so even though this is great information it doesn't seem to apply to me. My car handles great (especially compared to stock).

imported_gatherer

bbarbulo that spindle drop works for the front but what about the back ... what part would have to be modified back there to get the drop desired?

slow_dx

[quote[corner balance your chassis (not just 50/50 Front Rear distribution of weight, but Left and right balance as well) [/quote]

Rob,

I have read that many race car builders have been trying to get weight off the front wheels, aiming for that 50/50 weight distribution.

Have been doing some reading of my own and have been wondering if perhaps a better solution would be to stay with the inherently unbalanced 60/40, and compensate with a stiff rear end (to counter the natural push) and wider tires up front than in the rear (to counter push and help put the power down).

The reason is, in a front wheel drive car, wouldn't you want some more weight on the driven wheels to help get the power down out of the corners?

I guess it would be countered by a loss of efficiency during braking, and it would probably only make a big difference in a high powered FF.

Anybody know what the FF BTCC cars run for weight distribution and tire choice?

sjwong

Interesting read..

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

gatherer, a drop arm is used for the back... you know those two things sticking out from the middle of the car towards the sides? Where the shock fork bolts to? That is re-done with an angle to it, so instead of being straight, it has a bend in it.

imported_gatherer

thanks Bruno... and is that a better way of lowering the rear end? won't that angle create a weaker piece.

and if you were to build a race car would you use this method? (drop arms and drop spindles) and stiffer springs and shocks?

it's more expensive then just using shorter springs but from a performance view would it be worth it?

bbarbulo

iTrader: (2)

IMO, it's not worth it... a simple set of well tuned coilovers or a nice 50-75% stiffer spring over a high quality shock is all you need.

Don't lower the car, just upgrade the spring rate... leave the susp geometry alone... factory puts in springs for comfort, not performance... so you swap spring rates and get matching shocks, and tune the rest through sway bars... cheapest, most effective race car right there! No trick susp, no drop forks... nothing!

imported_gatherer

Thanks Bruno (that was the way I've been leaning) this drop spindle looks interesting though.

Astroboy

Good info

Civic_on_tha_DL

Rob,

I have read that many race car builders have been trying to get weight off the front wheels, aiming for that 50/50 weight distribution.

Have been doing some reading of my own and have been wondering if perhaps a better solution would be to stay with the inherently unbalanced 60/40, and compensate with a stiff rear end (to counter the natural push) and wider tires up front than in the rear (to counter push and help put the power down).

The reason is, in a front wheel drive car, wouldn't you want some more weight on the driven wheels to help get the power down out of the corners?

I guess it would be countered by a loss of efficiency during braking, and it would probably only make a big difference in a high powered FF.

Anybody know what the FF BTCC cars run for weight distribution and tire choice? [/QUOTE]




















Alot of them run 19's-18's... but I know for a fact that weight distrubtion is 50/50..... you guys really have to drive a race car to understand why it is best to have 50/50. I've been driving 50cc and 125cc go-karts since I was 11years old to present date, and weight dist' is THE most important factor when setting up a chaissis, then tires, then gearing, then air pressure.

Aahhhhh, I love internet racers.