jamis33

Alright so Ive been doing some searching and I realize there's a lot of hostility when asking who is good to go to for tuning. I also realize people hate long threads but flame for short threads so i'll try and keep it medium...

Car: 2001 honda civic coupe
Engine: d17a2
Engine Management: HONDATA KPRO
Mods: forged internals, built head, complete turbo kit, return fuel conversion with boost referencing fpr, 440cc injectors (not that the mods matter basically its a turbo d17 on kpro).

My issues (i'll number them so people can address them individually):

1. I'm a decent street tuner and I have really good base maps to start with if I can get it to a point where my afr is good and steady and i have no knocking, detonation,preignition is it worth the money to go to a tuner? Keep in mind I'll only gain from dyno tune because my street tune will be bang on or near bang on for afr without preigniton.

2. Kpro is notorious for having a "cold start" issue. Meaning for some stupid reason the car will not start below about 30degrees FARENHEIT (sorry kpro doesnt show in celsius). Is there any tuner out there who can fix this. I think I've got it solved but I'm looking for a tuner who has specifically dealt with the cold start problem on a d17 with kpro and fixed it because it pissed me off. It happens to everyone. if temp is 31 it fires right up. Hondata refuses to aknowledge the existence of this problem. Coldest I've gotten a start is 25F after that i had my starter break (not related to the problem the wire was corroded) and by the time I replaced it it wasn't cold anymore.

3. Should I be running meth? Simple enough its hard to find 93octane without paying an arm and a leg. Is it worth it to pick up a water/meth injection kit? Power goals around 300whp at around 16psi. (thats a realistic goal btw)

4. If you guys think I need a tuner who is recommended given what I have posted above?

MPR

Don't choose a boost level, just pick a power goal. If your internals can handle the power and the turbo you're using can also handle the power at the desired rpm for that engine displacement, then you should be able to make the power with what ever amount of boost is required.

440cc injectors might not be enough for that kind of power, you might want 550's or higher. You'll need to run those 440's at or near their max to make 300 and that's not too safe.

I'm a Megasquirt stand alone guy, and with MS the problem could be easily fixed. I'm not familiar with hondata or their kpro setup so I'm not sure what the problem could be. I've started our MR2 in the winter at -15 C or lower and it fired up no problem.

It could be a problem in the coding of the program where once the IAT drops below 30 degrees F it doesn't know what to do. Or it could be an issue with the IAT sensor itself, or with the maps you have, or with the warm up enrichments. Could be a lot of things...lol. Hard to say without seeing it.

Anyways, I'm not sure who is a good tuner with hondata. But good luck and hope you get the issue sorted.

jamis33

alright its not the "ability" of the EMS to tune for it. Its a glitch in the programming because hondata is in california. Its only when the ect is cold. Some people have said that its a problem with the way kpro reads the ECT sensor. I have "HEARD" of someone who would keep a spare ect sensor in their pocket all day, plug it in and the car would fire right up. Never had a spare sensor until now to try. Its just a matter of guess and check with the fuel values. I just cant believe its fine at 32 but at 30 it says screw off and its consistent like that. At 30 it'll catch once the ect gets warmed up to 32 from it cranking over and over again. I realize 440cc injectors are really tiny but I'm running a return fuel system so I should be able to squeeze a bit more out of them if i set base fuel pressure to 60psi with rising rate. I figure that should be safe enough and even at 80psi (from the 1:1 rising rate) thats safe for my injectors i think and 80psi max fuel would come at 20psi of boost and I know i'll be at 300 before 20psi. I'm not dead set on 300whp. I'd say somewhere between 250whp and 300whp would work. Wherever my injectors max is where I'm going to stop. Gotta draw the line somewhere.

D.T.P

IMO no need for meth. As long as the tune is right, you will not see hot enough temperatures that would cause you to want meth. Could consult with DMT, i know they have tuned on hondata and many other softwares.

Granted, with meth, you should be able to push more power out but for your goals, its not needed.

MPR

Ditch the rising rate FPR for a fixed FPR and set the pressure no higher than ~50-60psi. Trying to push more out of a set of injectors by cranking up the fuel pressure is not a great idea. It may work but it's unstable and can make tuning difficult as the pressure is unstable. Pressure needs to be consistent for proper fuel delivery at all times. It is always best to properly size the injectors for the setup vs. just bumping the pressure to compensate. 440's should be ok up to around 250whp. Anything higher I'd be going to 550's +. From my own experience, I've found rising rate FPR's are pretty sketchy. But the choice is yours.

As for the tuning issue, sell the hondata and go megasquirt! You won't have any starting issues in cold temps.

jamis33

megasquirt doesn't work with the d17a2. There was a thread about it on 7thgenhonda a while back. the d17a2 is the same ELECTRONICS as the kseries. Its all this crazy overly complicated stuff that only hondata and aem ems can handle. EMS also has a cold start issue and ems sucks compared to kpro (but that's a whole nother discussion). I'm pretty sure 440's will do past 250 without issue. We'll see tho. I'm not in a rush to make crazy power. I just got my car boosted last weekend and I still don't have it running right. The stupid 440cc injectors are so long the fuel rail hits the throttlebody so right now I'm just searching for a better way to bolt the fuel rail down and get the injectors to seal because they're leaking right now. I think I'm just going to street tune until I get my built block finished and in the car. Thanks for all the help everyone.

MPR

Uh, you haven't looked into MS3 yet then. MS will work on ANY engine regardless of what it is. The older MS2 would also work, I'm 110% sure. They are constantly updating and upgrading MS and it's components t make it easier and more capable.

MS isn't like any "piggyback" or "chipped ecu", it's a complete stand alone system. MS3 has more inputs and outputs then most other mega-expensive standalone ecu's out there (AEM EMS etc.) and just as much if not more processing power. Saying it simply won't work is an excuse for saying they don't know for sure, or haven't tried and just assume it's too difficult.

It's a SOHC vtec 4 banger. It doesn't even have variable valve timing. There shouldn't be any issues. What "electronics" are you referring to that are so different that would be a problem for MS?

Sure hondata is a great easy plug and play tuning solution because it was specifically designed for that vehicle. But as you've indicated it was also developed in a warmer climate where they never see temps as low as us and as a result, the programing is flawed and causes problems in colder temps. Hondata code is not open source, so even if someone is skilled in code outside the company couldn't look at it and fix the problem. Another plus for MS, all it's firmware and software/tuning programs are all open source, which means if someone encounters such a problem (which has happened before), anyone who is skilled in reading/writing code can go in, look at the code and fix any problems. This has occurred in the past with a firmware update for MS2 and a friend of mine actually found the issue in the code, corrected it and posted it to the MS website/forums for all MS users to benefit. For free!

I assure you, it can be made to run right on MS. It just requires a little extra knowledge and time on the setup side. A lot of people severely underestimate what MS is capable of, partially due to its lower cost and partially because they get scared of the little extra work required to get it setup correctly.

If you want to stick with hondata, you'll either have to live with the issue, or find a way to 'trick' the ecu into thinking the ect is above 32 degrees regardless of the actual temp.

jamis33

Can megasquirt handle coil on plug ignition? There was a thread on the 7thgen forum about using megasquirt and the idea was completely shot down because of lack of ability to control some of the functions that are needed. For example it cannot adjust the idle the way the d17 would need it to. I thought it was a parallel ecu not a full standalone? The stock ecu has some crazy programming in it that even if you adjust the idle manually on the iacv it will reset the idle electronically to bring it down. This sucks for us guys that have stage 2 or higher cams that will not idle right at low rpms. I'm sure with tons and tons of tuning its possible to get those big cams to settle down at stock idle but speaking from experience I was running a stage 1 cam with a ported head and had idling issues until I got kpro and could turn up the idle. I'm not sure if megasquirt can completely control the idle and take away all idle control from the stock ecu. Next is the coil on plug ignition. This is why it got shut down on the 7thgen site. As far as they could figure out, it was incompatible with the coil on plug ignition system that the 7thgen has. This is why we can't just use hondata s300 with a jumper harness and generally one of the biggest tuning problems with the newer cars. Ignition timing is important to me. It also appears that megasquirt requires a lot of additional electronics. This car is my daily driver and I'd prefer to not have to do tons of wiring and swapping out every sensor in the car. I guess there ARE other options for tuning but nobody in the 7thgen community or rsx community has adopted the megasquirt system and not too many tuners know how to use it. It seems like it would be great for someone that had about a month or 2 to set it up and get it running well. I'm not sure if megasquirt would be able to solve the cold start issue. My logic is if I have to rewrite all kinds of fuel tables and stuff to get it to work in the cold then i'd rather be rewriting them on hondata where its a bit more simple to input, test, retry etc. Cold starts are the most annoying thing to tune for because once the car starts its not cold anymore and everytiem you make an adjustment and it doesn't start you don't know how much fuel you have in there. plus running the starter and cranking it over and over generates heat which warms it up. It literally could take weeks to perfect the cold start values

Megasquirt is cheaper but by the time you add on everything that is needed it'll start to add up. For example ms3 with msx expansion is 640 for the unit assembled. Id consider myself smart enough to do the assembly myself so I could probably get away with spending only 365 for the base + 90 for the expansion because I would most likely need it for all of my stuff. thats 455 right there. I'd also need some more other electronics from diyautotune to properly set it up. I'll budget around 100 for that and I think thats fair. so I'm up to 555 + shipping on that is going to be around $30 (just looked it up) thats 585. Hondata can read off factory o2 sensor since the new cars are factory wideband so I'll have to buy a wideband. Thats $200. that bring me to 785. Now to do this legitimately since shipping is to the states you would have to add on 13% for just the duty (thats not even taking into account any brokerage). that's 887. I believe a wiring harness is also required to get megasquirt to work. I picked up hondata for 850. Plug it in and load base map and go. Megasquirt would require me to sit down and solder it all together (fun and not a big deal but still time consuming) Then rewire everything to get it to work and the cost is about the same. I'm sure its a great ems but I've only taken 1 semester of programming. I hate coding. It's much easier to spend similar money and stick with hondata. Not only that there's something that I know megasquirt can't do and that's high speed and low speed tables. Meaning you can adjust based on your vtec engagement point. So if I want my vtec at 3k rpms I just set it and the tables are already there I don't have to go in and advance timing and add fuel because I have a complete seperate vtec table. This comes in very handy when trying to set the ideal vtec point. I looked into megasquirt when the discussion came up and thought about it but its a lot of work and not much savings.

MPR

^MS3 can handle coil on plug easy. Can also do sequential fuel injection. MS is a complete stand alone system and completely replaces the stock ecu. I don't know where you heard it was a parallel system, but it's not. It can also control your IACV no problem. It's capable of controlling a wide array of solenoids, control valves, stepper motors etc. And you won't have to worry about the stock honda ecu programming interfering. You'll be able to set your idle where ever you want. Just keep in mind, if you do have a higher lift, higher overlap cam, you'll have a difficult time getting it to idle smoothly to begin with.

I think you slightly over estimated all the components you will need for your setup. Even if it did end up costing near the same as hondata, the value per dollar for MS kills the hondata. Hondata kpro is not only limited to be used on honda vehicles only, but specific honda engines. MS can be setup to work on any engine in any car regardless of the make.

MS is one solution that will work but I'm not saying it's the only solution and the main reason I'm going on about MS is because so many honda people dismiss it much to quickly and severely underestimate what it can do, let alone know what it is.

Now you already have the hondata installed and working, so it doesn't make sense to completely change your EMS. Your best bet is to get it tuned properly and find a way to fix or trick the ECT signal to get around that glitch.

jamis33

fair enough. So just an update. I'm boosted on 5psi and aside from my oil cooler leaking its running great. Tuned it myself last night and I've decided until i get into more boost like 10+psi my street tunes will be fine. Got solid 11.5-11.8:1 under boost and 14.4-15 in vac. Boost transition is smooth and it pulls hard for 5psi. I'm going to try and smooth the afr out completely but for now it runs awesome. First time ever driving or being in a vtec turbo car and actually my first time driving a fwd turbo car but its a lot of fun. All that torque is great.

MPR

Boost is definitely addictive, that's for sure...

You could go 12.5:1 safely at that boost level. That's where we were running the MR2 at 12-15psi. 11.5 - 11.8 is still a little on the rich side and if you run it that way too long with the wide band O2, it will kill it. Plus you'll make more power at 12.5. You should also be able to go way more lean under vacuum. As I recall we had our MR2 at 17:1 under vacuum and low load/throttle input. It got surprisingly good fuel mileage because of it, which was the goal.

Sounds like you're on the right track, though. Take it in steps, not leaps...lol. Hope you get the ect issue sorted.

I will be going through the same process soon, once the MS is ready to be installed. Can't wait.

nsrhonda89

Talk to these guys their website has a few em2 turbo. They may be able to help you.
http://dynamotorsports.ca/news.htm